Letter: Why not spend £17bn on existing railways?
Tuesday 22nd March 2011, 6:00AM GMT.
Letter: What is this government thinking about spending my money on a £17 billion High Speed rail link (HS2) between Birmingham and London?
What is this obsession with getting from Birmingham to our capital 10 minutes earlier devoiding other manufacturing towns/cities (Wolverhampton/Coventry/Telford) of the same privilege?
What is the reason for Birmingham’s new build terminus 15 minutes away from the centre and New Street Station?
Has the government gone mad again when £17 billion could be spent on improving the existing network?
Peter Hassall
Shifnal
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You are so right and sensible, but then you are obviously are not an MP.
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Don’t be silly. It’s not so people can get to London from Birmingham quicker, it so on Friday evenings (or when the revolution starts, whichever comes earlier) people can get *out* of London that little bit faster.
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At last people are becoming aware what the government are trying to do.By the time HS2
would be running virgin would would have one nearly as fast.Those who have objected are thoseworst affected and have made others aware.The bulldozers could have been at the door as no letter has been recieved by any who would loose homes.Only now is a parliamentry inquiry to be held to decide wether it has a valid business case.This has only come about because of those affected.Understandably they wanted to know thatit would be for the greater good should they have to loose,homes,business,and communities.Instead it has taken a year of Mr hammond and other MPs just childish name calling.It doesnt give much respect for those in charge of thecountry.
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I’m inclined to agree, although I’d heard the time saving would be half an hour, not ten minutes. Even so, that’s neither here nor there and certainly not worth £17bn of anybody’s money.
I don’t think the obsession is to do with time saving, it’s to do with international bragging rights. It’s like the neighbour who just has to have the latest 50″ 3D TV, but on a much larger scale.
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The official HS2 Consultation document does indeed give a time saving between Euston & Curzon Street of 35 minutes based on a present weekday journey time of 1hr 24min down to 49min; this is based on an average of 109 weekday trains in both directions.
However, in my opinion, opponents of HS2 are trying to mislead the public by claiming that this figure is wrong, on the basis that just one weekday train does the trip in 1hr 12min; this is the 7.30am train from Brum to Euston.
Also it should be remembered that every train using the new HS2 route to/from Brum, will have the same 35min average journey reduction; this time saving does not apply just to Brum trains.
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Sadly, you are wide of the mark in many respects.
The new line is about running more trains. The existing west coast line is reaching saturation point and in a few years there will be no room for more trains and so more overcrowding would occur. Is that what people want?
You cannot simply widen the existing lines. look at the Chaos a few years ago as they improved the existing lines. No services on Saturdays or sundays for months on end, total blockades with no trains at all for weeks. Is that what people want?
You cannot easily speed up the existing line as faster trains need straighter tracks. The existing line runs through densley populated areas (hence why it is so busy) and buying land in those areas will be far far more expensive than the route of the new line.
For people in Shropshire, the new line will release trains and track capacity for through trips to London and more trains into Birmingham which seems to be what everyone wants if you read the Shropshire Star letters page.
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Thanks George @ Dawley for a healthy dose of informed common sense, which is often signally absent in debates concerning the vexed topic of HS2
Other options have been considered and rejected because they don’t offer the same level of economic and transport benefits.
Go and check out the Atkins Report, Rail Package 2 is the portion regularly quoted by opponents of HS2 but of course taken out of context this can convey an utterly false picture, which is distorted to support the argument against a new line that just happens to come through their back yards?
The entire range of Atkins proposals actually costs more or less the same as HS2, doesn’t deliver the same degree of capacity upgrades, will involve massive and ongoing disruption for years to come, won’t facilitate direct provincial services to the near continent and will eventually see us back where we are now (running short of capacity at pinch points in the network) in a few decades time.
HS2 on the other hand creates a one off solution that introduces massive new capacity, facilitates direct competition (because the line is constructed to European interoperability standards) and direct provincial services to the European mainland thus linking a huge swathe of the UK population (outside the London/SE nexus of power and influence) to the burgeoning pan-European High Speed Rail network
Seems like a no-brainer to me?
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I am a huge rail enthusiast but even i see that HS2 is a waste of time and money and will certainly exceeds the 17Billion pound. The west coast main line from manchester to london Cost 3 times its origional budget. We need to improve the track maintenance of exsisting track and remove the TOC (Train operating companies) That are currently charging extortinate rates for travel. We dont need a nationalised rail system. Network rail who keep track maintenance do their job fine but the TOCs are the cause for delays and always try to claim money back on poor track maintenance, which is not the case. We remove the TOCs we remove a huge travel expense. HS2 is a terible idea and the money should be spent on revamping the old system with a new signal system that does not consist of wire that can be stolen and sold for scrap. When virgin anounced their Pendelino they anounced it could do 140mph which i know they can but they only do a maximum speed of 120mph update the track and they can do 20mph more that will cut 20 minutes or more from london to manchester let alone 10 minutes from london to birmingham.
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@Damian H: ”
I am a huge rail enthusiast but even i see that HS2 is a waste of time and money and will certainly exceeds the 17Billion pound. The west coast main line from manchester to london Cost 3 times its origional budget.”
Some facts might help to inform readers
The only comparable UK based project; HS1 came in on time and within budget – HS1 was a new line built from scratch, which is exactly what HS2 represents
In stark constrast, the West Coast Mailine Upgrade is what others here seem to advocating, result – massively overbudget, ended up costing approx £10bn, took the best part of ten years to complete and involved massive disruption during its implementation
Conclusion: Go for a new build using a new route – which is exactly what you get with HS2!!!
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[It’s like the neighbour who just has to have the latest 50″ 3D TV, but on a much larger scale.]
I totally agree but the word London has to come into the equation or it wouldn’t remotely be considered.
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Re-open tracks that should not have been closed down in the 1960s.
This would result in better cross-country transport. Not all journeys start or end in London.
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What tracks are these? Those that could have been useful in serving major population centres have been concreted over, either with supermarkets, bypass roads, housing estates, or reused for pipelines and cycleways. Many of Dr Beechings cuts were in rural areas that would not add greatly to cutting CO2 with the present urban geography.
All in all, not too practical and lets face it, trains are never going to cope with door to door journeys for the majority but are viable as city to city replacements for flights or cars or HGVs.
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HS2 is planned to re-use portions of old tracks through Buckinghamshire & Warwickshire. Not sure what other tracks you think can be reopened. Many have been built on, they make good foundations for roads and busways, cycletracks and for pipelines. The cost of reopening a long closed line can be as high as building a new one.
Whilst many journeys may not involve London, the jams on the M1 and M40 would suggest there are alot of journeys out there that do that are not yet on the train. Cross country trains use the west coast too and as there are no parallel lines for these services, taking the long distance trains off the west coast and onto HS2 will give back valuble capacity for these cross country trains, the intermediate trains from Coventry, Hemel Hemstead and the like both north to Birmingham and south to LOndon. Then there is freight. The poor relation of rail but where the biggest CO2 savings can be made – fresh fruit direct from Spain by train in under 24 hours. It is posible and does happen but as capacity gets choked off by passenger trains, the freight will revert to the roads and we all suffer then
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The basic answer to the letter writers question is because of EU Directives requiring European Member States to use harmonised Technical Specifications for something called “Interoperability” which basically means that EU Governments are required to ensure compatibility between European railways to allow for through running of trains between Member States.
So why not spend the money on upgrading the present rail system instead of a new line to London because the new line is not to London it is to link to the channel tunnel line and this proposed line is only part of a much bigger investment in high speed rail that will eventually be extended to Scotland with a further link to Wales. Our present Victorian designed system is not compatible with modern systems in other EU Countries and will eventually have to be replaced.
This is needless to say a very a long term project, The European Commission (EC) introduced its first Directive (the “High Speed Directive”) on railway interoperability in 1996 (Council Directive 96/48/EC). Work on preparing for the project has been ongoing since then. Full details can be accessed from the DT web site.
Yes I know its the EU again! But as I keep saying our membership has very far reaching effects in practically every aspect of our government. Now we know why, we can forget about blaming the Tories, or Labour, suggesting that the money would be better spent elsewhere, or proposing alternative plans, the decision was made way back by our EU Government, all our UK government and our future UK governments have to implement it. That is why I keep going on about the EU, no one at the election even mentioned the new High Speed rail plans and whichever of the LibLabCon we voted for those plans were set to proceed. We do not get to choose we are only expected to pay the bill.
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Peter Hassall is quite wrong in his original letter to claim that the HS2 station in Birmingham would be 15 minutes from the city centre. Its entrance would be adjacent to Moor Street station and right next door to the rear entrance to Marks & Spencer’s High Street store — you cannot get much more central than that!
As for railway investment, huge sums are being spent upgrading the present system (e.g. Thameslink in London) and some £16 billion is already being spent on constructing the new Crossrail line in London. Lines in the North West and the Great Western main line to Bristol and Cardiff are all to be electrified.
But more capacity, and more investment, is needed to benefit the rest of the country. HS2 will help do this. Remember, the rail network is carrying more passengers today than it was 70 years ago, when the network size was 50 per cent larger than now. The Beeching era seriously depleted network capacity. Now it needs to be restored — in a form suitable for the 21st Century.
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i dont agree with this letter, we need high speed rail in this country for the economy and the environment, it will help telford to have a link in birmingham which you can connect to at new st
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[Many of Dr Beechings cuts were in rural areas that would not add greatly to cutting CO2 with the present urban geography]
Yes George but with proposed expansion of villages and the need for more housing not necessarily in already high density areas such as cities or suburbs, a reliable form of transport other than the car would have been great.
I think part of the problem is this concept of speed. Take that away, after all we’re not a large country, and providing access from A to B is a lot more simplified.
Surely less destruction to the environment and quality of life is a huge consideration when making these decisions?
Keep speed as merely sport with all kinds of transport and good provision, reliabilty and aesthetics as priorities instead.
Time is also really a meaningless concept when you think about it, it passes whatever you do with it.
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make no mistake hs2 will go ahead and non profit making regional lines, eg. dovey junction to pwlheli will be closed to pay for it. it is time the cambrian lines action group were reformed, they may be needed soon, and the shrewsbury to aberystwyth line will need more passengers or else, beeching 2 is just around the corner, you have been warned. chuff chuff wooooow wooooow
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Of course High Speed Rail 2 would be a good thing for Birmingham and London, improving the transport infrastructure. However if you read the Economic Case, published February 2011, some facts emerge that should be of concern to everyone else…
Firstly it will cost at least £1000 per taxpayer to build – £30 Billion split between 30 million income tax payers. So in a two income household you will be paying the equivalent of £2000 extra tax just to get it built, before you buy a ticket. And most people won’t buy a ticket because they won’t live anywhere near one of the new stations [which don't immediately connect with current main line stations] and if you do, expect ticket prices for premium travel to be quite expensive.
Secondly, whilst much cheaper alternatives to HS2 exist and can be implemented and develop capacity in stages, HS2 will give no benefit in return for you £1000 until at least 2026.
Thirdly, the consultation document talks about “shrinking the country”, by saving journey time between North and South. In France or Spain or China there are some very large, sparsely populated areas between major cities. In England – and there is no proposal to extend HSR to Scotland or Wales – there are many towns and cities that are simply by-passed or excluded by HSR. Rather than benefit the whole of the country, it benefits a small number of centres like London and Birmingham at the expense of the large majority of other towns and cities that are missed out. So whilst we all contribute to HSR, in our taxes, actually very few places in England will gain the benefits.
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“there is no proposal to extend HSR to Scotland or Wales” Suggest you check the DT web site which clearly states that the proposal is to extend the HSR to Scotland and Wales.
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Curzon Street station is half a mile away from Marks and Spencers and about the same distance from the Bullring. I know that because I checked it out on google maps. It will take about 15 minutes to walk from the station to the city centre or about the same amount of time sitting on a bus.
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