Letter: Hunting is so barbaric

Could Tom Williams, who attempted to justify hunting with hounds in his letter of February 20, please explain to me how exactly a bunch of upper class, blood thirsty people on horseback, in their hunting ‘pink’, chasing exhausted and terrified foxes through the countryside (and often through people’s gardens) is in any way ‘natural’?

hunting - PA

Could Tom Williams, who attempted to justify hunting with hounds in his letter of February 20, please explain to me how exactly a bunch of upper class, blood thirsty people on horseback, in their hunting ‘pink’, chasing exhausted and terrified foxes through the countryside (and often through people’s gardens) is in any way ‘natural’?

This has absolutely nothing to do with nature, it is all about ‘the thrill of the chase’ and their enjoyment at watching wild animals being savaged.

They love it, make no mistake.

These people are always banging on about hunting being a country tradition. It may well be, but nature and tradition are not the same thing, and like many other barbaric traditions, this one should be outlawed once and for all.

Properly outlawed, not the half-hearted state of affairs that currently passes for a hunting ban.

Nick Adkin

Ketley Bank

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Comments for: "Letter: Hunting is so barbaric"

Nistagmus

It has nothing to do with them being 'upper class' or 'bloody thirsty'.

They like doing it because they've got issues.

Whether you choose to pity them, or laugh at them is your choice, but whatever you do, don't suggest they're upper class or have allusions to being upper-class - they like that and that makes you an enabler.

steve

What sort of person uses any disease let alone one predominantly associated with that of the blind as a internet comment tittle .

Nystagumus, cerabellar jerk, congenital pendular , down-beat, and see-saw are the most common cases of the disease,

I cannot decide whether you have used a spanish diction or simply mis-spelled such an offensive tittle .

Rob, Telford

"I cannot decide whether you have used a spanish diction or simply mis-spelled such an offensive tittle ."

...what was the tittle of your english diction...?

...pott calling ketle blak I think...

Nistagmus

Que ?

The use of ad hominems tends to prove that a valid point has been made, so thanks.

pete

Nuclear proliferation in the Arab states, Iran, Middle Eastern uprising , Syria, Systemic gobal financial collapse,Extremist terrorism, Electoral corruption Russia, Eurozone bail outs , Greece, Portugal, Spain,Italy,Ireland.... Bank of England quantitative easing the risk of deflation, Hyperinflation and all this concerns is a verminous pest and how people traditionally hunt it? There isn't even a proposal to change the law so why waste the effort writing let alone publishing this letter?????????????

Nistagmus

Ans: Internet visitor hits.

Port Hill Boy

There are more worrying and dangerous issues in the world yet....we can judge our society by its moral behaviour and can't say something isn't worth bothering about because it's not the most important thing in the world. Torturing animals by chasing them until they are terrified and exhausted, and then allowing them to be torn apart is a sickening indictment of those who participate.

As Edmund Burke said " The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing".

Let good people continue to fight against hunting.

ANDREW FINCH

May i ask port hill boy do you live in la la land?? this does not happen anymore, really it does not .

It is very sad to think we have so many in society who subscribe to cover ups,and conspiracy theories.

We ALL must ask ourselves including our government and law enforcement officers do these people have an ulterior motive ? because the poor old fox seems to have been moved way , way, down the list.

Port Hill Boy

Andrew, your replies are becoming more rambling and full of non-sequiturs.

What cover up or conspiracy are you saying I suggested?

I have, on Boxing Day, seen hounds chasing a fox across open countryside. It's not a thing of the past unfortunately.

ANDREW FINCH

The record it and pass it on to the police .Police not acting on a crime is the cover up people are saying as the police according to them fail to act on ALL reports.

May i suggest what you possibly saw was a fox running from cover as the hounds etc entered the area he was ?. Whether they that day set out to chase the fox and were deliberately chasing the fox is debatable .

We must not forget two hounds are still permitted to flush a fox to a waiting gun and he is to dispatch if safe to do so.

Gary

In contradiction to AF's claims there is plenty of recent video footage of the ghastly behaviour of fox hunters abusing and attacking both the public and tearing foxes to bits (youtube). The evidence is there no matter how much the hunting thugs wish to lie and decieve. Do not get anywhere near a hunt with a video camera - you be attacked by either the 'hunter' or their supporters (even if they they are trespassing on your land).

ANDREW FINCH

I do think we need to agree to disagree on whether hunting in traditional form still takes place and move on from that as i and many will not accept if crimes have been committed and reported the police fail to act UK wide.

I would also add OK if on your land but other than that what gives you or anyone the right to shove video cameras etc and record people how would you like it?? .

Good example on youtube POSH SALLY where she is accused of using her horse to push a video person over , watch the video a few times and you will see a number of people on horse back standing still and a persone with a video camera filming them why?? you do not see any hunting?? .

I am sure if i walked in to the quarry and started filming people with dogs of leads they would take um-bridge and try and stop me filming.

Lucy W

Of course it still goes on. Just ring up your local hunt and ask where they are so you can watch. Obviously you won't be told as they have something to hide.

Come on, this 'we hunt within the law' doesn't fool anyone except the police.

pete

Edmund Burke also said "bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny" Dulce et decorum est?

ANDREW FINCH

It has now become an issue where this is does not have the welfare of the fox at its heart which is all very sad and to the detriment of the people who fought for this ban. The fox in my view is now protected via the hunting with dogs ban.However it remains on the government list as vermin on par with rats etc , these people need to be addressing this issue get the fox removed from the list of vermin .

More foxes are killed now than ever before through gun, gas, snare i imagine in 10 years or so the fox may well be put on the same list as the badger due to low numbers it will then with out doubt be fully protected which is what these people really want.

However we now have an issue where people with issues have an issue with horses , riding attire , what people they assume do for a living and how much money they assume these people have? and class issues all very sad and misguided

( watch the new show by Melvin Bragg).

If we indeed go down the line these people have issues with etc it will not be long before we see demos against dressage events.

The once paramount issue which was the fox has now by the ANTIS been side lined in favour of the sport they have now created since the ban came in to place on par with non genuine football hooligans who venture out to ruin a legal past time , this is is some sort of misguided class warfare game against certain people in our countryside.

I have not seen a fox deliberateness chased across fields by a pack of hounds and torn apart since the ban came in to place .

Many youtube videos are pre ban,we possibly have more laws broken by people who are making assumption that hunting pre ban is still taking place , show me the evidence show the police the evidence , the whole idea we have a uk wide cover up is ridiculous .

Nistagmus

Exactly.

It takes a certain kind of person to hunt and kill a fox with dogs, and they ain't got *any* class, that much is for sure.

ANDREW FINCH

Again talking about the past,

For so much evidence about with regards crimes being committed against fox and man yet no prosecutions, no arrests , just dodgy excuses the police have not got the time bla bla bla , ????.

As i have said we seem to have an ulterior motive here and it is nothing to do with the well being of the poor old fox.

It is clear both parties when it comes to the hunting debate need to ensure their house is in full law abiding order , one seems to be, the other and its motives questionable to say the least , i think the general public have made their mind up on that one ie they do not care a jot until asked for an opinion and then end up confused .

Nistagmus

I'm cool with that. I'll talk about the past then.

People who hunted with dogs to kill foxes reveal themselves to have no class.

I don't see what difference the tense makes, but if it makes you happier....

twisting my melon

Do you dislike these people because they want to hunt foxes or because they have more money than you . I think that the way you try to mock and ridicule the upper classes suggests the latter and therefore your other point of trying to ban an already banned sport is a bit pointless.

Watchdog

There are people who genuinely oppose hunting and I can respect, albeit disagree with them, but their cause is severely undermined by the support of anarchists for whom it provides nothing more than a vehicle for political ends. I don't hunt or even know anyone who does, but in my opinion the Hunting Act was the most shameful waste of Parliamentary time ever, simply because it's unenforcable and there are more important issues. Hunting will always evoke strong views, but whereas Labour cynically exploited it for their own ends, the days when politicians were prepared to listen to the vociferous representations of the "antis" have long gone. Get over it and get on with making yourself useful by helping your fellow human instead of getting all lathered up over a creature which as Andrew rightly pointed out, is still classed as vermin (and if you've ever seen the slaughter that a fox can wreak amongst fowl you might understand why.)

Nistagmus

I don't murder or know anyone who's committed murder but in my opinion the law against murder is the most pointless waste of time, simply because it's can't be used until someone has actually already been murdered.

Colin.D.

A rather confused bit of reasoning there Mr./Mrs. Nistagmus. So, according to you, every law in the country is a waste of time, as none of them can be invoked until they have actually been broken.

Do you have an alternative suggestion?

Nistagmus

In that case you must be equally confused by Watchdog's logic on the Hunting Act.

katherine de gama

Attempt, incitement and other inchoate offenes allow conviction before ham is done. Sorry to be pedantic!

The Original Andy

Watchdog, foxes are classed as vermin because humans have chosen to class them as such. Are we not the ones that are vermin? We over populate this planet,destroy rain forests, take more than we need and exploit all other animals, as well as fight over religion and money. Think about it. Oh and a fox kills fowl to survive. We kill foxes for sport. Hey ho, one nil to me.

Watchdog

Actually Andy, you could have a point, but the plight of people (many of them classed as vermin by their more affluent peers) evokes more sympathy from me than foxes do and you're not as clever as you think. I grant you a fox has to find prey to survive, but you've obviously not seen the aftermath of a fox's visit to a hen coop. You can keep your score though, bless you.

The Original Andy

Thanks for the reply, made me smile! I dont think I am clever, just expressing my point of view. I still stand with what I said though. Thank you for letting me keep the score and bless you back!!!

Lucy W

Watchdog thinks the law is unenforceable. Well its not, the League Against Cruel Sport and their associates have had much success. See their web site.

Why can't the police enforce this law?

Tyrone Shoelaces

You want to see some barbaric behavior try visiting most city/town centres on a friday or saturday night.

Maybe the south shrophire hunt should start visiting pubs with video camaras and post the alcohol induced carnage and bloodshed on youtube?

There are plenty of victims courtest of excessive drinking every weekend (that are not classified as vermin) - police officers, A & E nurses, innocent bystanders, ...

You should focus on a real issue rather than one apparently driven by class.

The Original Andy

Well said Nick, your letter gets right to the point. These ra ra's on horseback think they are above the law. It is tradition, but it is an old, corrupt, cruel tradition that needs a total ban. I for one would like to hunt one of these red suited narrow minded henry's to see how they like it. They would soon scurry back to their 61 plate Range Rovers.

ME BISCUIT TIN IS EMPTY

Range roveer 61 plate has to do with what?

You can clearly see what issues some of these people have , moaning about an issue that has been dealt with effectively and moaning what they have not got and others have .

The government will spend no further time on this, the politicians who voted for the ban see it as job done, clearly crimes being reported are not in fact not crimes , but reports by people who have failed to understand the bill or just a bunch of anarchists looking for trouble with the law and individuals .

twisting my melon

Someone else with more bitterness towards their wealth than their sport.

Watchdog

So you're not really interested in animal welfare at all? In fact, the sort of intolerance you have expressed (read your own words) explains everything.

The Original Andy

A few hairs have obviously been ruffled!! Yes, I am interested in animal welfare. With regard to wealth, my point is that it appears to be the wealthy that indulge in such sport. I would say the same about people with less money if they indulged.

Two Tone

The O Andy writes -"I for one would like to hunt one of these red suited narrow minded henry’s to see how they like it. They would soon scurry back to their 61 plate Range Rovers."

In my mind that would make them very easy to find!

Lucy W

The letter said "Properly outlawed, not the half-hearted state of affairs that currently passes for a hunting ban."

It is properly outlawed, its just that the police don't want to do anything about it. Maybe a Freedom of Information request to local police forces asking how many police officers have declared that they are a member of hunt will shed some light on the matter.

Watchdog

There's no conspiracy, Lucy. Try reporting a burglary or even an assault and you may be very disappointed by the response you get. The police have only a fraction of the resources we seem to think they do and when the offence concerns something as mobile as a hunt in rural England, it's extremely low on their list of priorities and can remove limited assets for an unreasonable length of time when they might suddenly become very necessary elsewhere. This is why it was such a bad law and such a cynical waste of Parliamentary time. Had the government of the day really wanted to outlaw hunting, it would have had to have increased funding for police forces throughout the land. It didn't and the law was revealed as nothing more than a vote winning placebo for the gullible.

Lucy W

I see, watchdog. Is that the official policy of the police then?

But look at the resources that go into fining me £60 for speeding while hunting carries a fine of £5,000.

It's not a question of the police allocating resorces to the 'level' of the crime.

Am I to understand that you don't want the law of the land enforcing if as a tax-payer you have to pay for it?

Lucy W

Watchdog, may I add that statistically rape has a low conviction rate and very difficult requiring vast police resources.

Are you saying the Sexual Offences Act is a cynical bad law to appease the gullible?

Honestly *tut*

Watchdog

Not at all, Lucy - and I would perhaps know more about that than you do unless you've had the very great misfortune to have been a victim. My point is precisely that I would much rather target resources at offences such as rape than at enforcing the Hunting ban. That would be because I place a higher priority on the welfare of humans rather than of animals, especially a fox - and it doesn't automatically follow that I must therefore be a cruel, bigotted and bloodthirsty monster. I just have different views and priorities to you. but read Woody's post - he's absolutely right.

katherine de gama

Interesting. My dad was an former copper and was appallred that policemen engaged in such a contested pursuit.

Lucy W

That well know teetotaler, non-smoking, vegetarian, Adolf Hitler banned fox hunting in Germany in 1939. We all know what happened next!

This must be the strongest arguement for repealling the ban.

Lucy W

I wonder if Andrew Finch will post where all the local hunts are 'lawfully' meeting so that all the 'disbelievers' can go and see for themselves?

Afterall, seeing is believing.

Let's see what his lame excuse is.

ANDREW FINCH

Well to be honest lucy you will have to wait until next season , a bit like football only in the winter months etc .

And you cant miss them on all accounts 06 range rovers every where, red coats every where, and hounds chasing foxes across open land and tearing it to pieces which happens all the while so i have been told , so not a need for me to tell you when and where its happening all over the place .

Lucy W

Dear Andrew, we both know thats not true - the season has not closed yet. It doesn't close until May traditionally when it was considered unsporting to hunt a vixen who would leave cubs behind to die if she was caught.

Of course, as we all know, trail hunts are not effected but such considerations and so have a much longer season, going well into the summer in some cases.

I don't roam the countryside looking for hunts but would be very grateful if you could tell us all where your 'trail' hunts are meeting as many of us would like to support such a jolly law abiding pass-time.

I think everyone can draw the correct inference from your silence on this matter.

ANDREW FINCH

Why do you not phone up the north-south shropshire hunt and ask them ??? most trail hunts both in the uk and Ireland are on the web etc .

The Original Andy

Well said Lucy....

Lucy W

Dear Andrew, I laid the gaunlet down for you to tell us in this air of openess and honestly that you claim exists.

You failed to pick the gaunlet up and so such cowardice can mean that you fear that the hunts you ae so well in with have something to hide.

On that basis, I'm not wasting my phone bill.

Come on, prove me wrong, pick up that gauntlet and phone all the hunts and post their fixtures here if no one has anything to hide.

Otherwise you will alway be known as Andrew the White feathered Finch.

Woody

The difinition of fox as in the Oxford English Dictionary:

a. An animal of the genus Vulpes, having an elongated pointed muzzle and long bushy tail. Usually V. vulgaris, preserved in England and elsewhere as a beast of the chase.

There is the answer in a nutshell. To change the perception of a particular animal and the traditions surrounding one, will take many decades of re-education.

As for policing "hunts", you will find this activity is very low in their priorities. Hence, unless the anti-hunt campaigners have physical evidence they will have to continue to lobby Parliament for further changes. Until then, the "hunts" will continue and some people's vitriolic comments won't make a jot of difference, be it "for" or "against" said hunts.

Perspective people, perspective!

Gary

Utter rubbish definition. Look up "lie" - it comes somewhere in between "crass" and "stupidity".

Woody

Then I suggest you write to the OED and complain and not post such a "crass or stupid" comment.

You have just proved my point!

Gary

"1

a: any of various carnivorous mammals (especially genus Vulpes) of the dog family related to but smaller than wolves with shorter legs, more pointed muzzle, large erect ears, and long bushy tail."

You have not had any point proven. Would suggest you grab a copy of the OED printed this century - they help with grammer too.

Woody

The definition is available on the OED online site, so your point is?

Secondly, if you are going to criticise I suggest you learn to spell. It's not "grammer" it's "grammar".

Powys Geezer

Don't know where your online dictionary gets Vulpes vulgaris from. The correct scientific name of the European Red Fox is Vulpes vulpes and has been for donkeys' years.

Jezebel

Tally ho

Lets get the big fat red faced huntsman off his horse and chase him through the fields and gardens of our rural idyll and see how he copes when the ravaging pack make a meal of his rotund figure, what chance does poor old Reynard have?? 1 fox against 60 hounds, wow fat huntsman your so brave!!!

But I forget.... it dosen't happen anymore does it...

ANDREW FINCH

No it doesn't it may be your paranoid.

Lucy W

So the RSPCA are paranoid, prosecuting Julian Barnfield, Huntsman of David Cameron's hunt, the Heythrop?

Gary

If it comes to casting a decision on who's "paranoid", keeps his head in the sand, neglects the facts, makes falsehoods, ete ete - then the finger points firmly in AF's direction.

eva land

Stop claiming that these hunts make an iota of difference to the fox population because they don't, it is just a blood sport.

In Syria children are victims blood sports at the moment.

It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy pitting their wits against a small wild creature and not the sort of person I personally like.

BamBam

Well eva, we could use politicians, quite a fitting end to their lieing and cheating. Plus they are the same size, I wonder how many people would turn out for that on boxing day, rather more than for Mr Fox, plus you wouldn't get all those activists, they would be cheering them on.

BamBam

I hate fox hunting, I don't agree with the methods they use to trap the fox. give the little bugger a fair chance and don't barricade his exit and entry holes.

However I don't think it should be banned. I know people who fox hunt, They are not upper class, maybe the red coats yes, but these are teenage girls out for the horse aspect of the sport. Yes make them accountable for any misdemeanors, regulate the sport, but don't ban it.

We are too reactionary to anything we don't agree with, we don't know the facts as we have not done it. We react on hearsay and get angry when we are challenged with factual questions.

I personally don't like obese, overweight people, they are a drain on our health system, they are visually unattractive, I want them banned. Can you see where i'm going with this, how far down this "lets ban it" road do you want to drive.

pieman

You don't need a fox for 'the horse aspect of the sport'. Why not use an obese, overweight person? A win-win for BamBam!!

Overweight people being chased by teenage girls? It seems Benny Hill had it figured out all along!

Lucy W

I understand it the 'thrill of the chase' that does it for them. Not so sure if obese could provide that - but there's no harm in trying.

BamBam

Thanks pieman, that would be kinda fun, however you would have to dig some rather deep holes to give them a fair chance.

Steve D

Why don't you 'Townies' just leave us Country folk alone. You get on with what you want to do and we will do what is required.

Being townies you will never have seen a hen house after the Mr Fox has been in there and ripped apart everything that moves, not to eat it just to kill it.

I think even you will agree that the fox population can not be left unchecked.

Please don't say 'then shoot them', again you townies will never seen a wounded fox that is not a pretty sight !

A pack of dogs on a fox may not be pretty (in your eyes) but it will not suffer for long.

Town crier

"Mr Fox has been in there and ripped apart everything that moves, not to eat it just to kill it."

So on that basis, the differences between you are;

a) he can't ride a horse

b) he can't blow a trumpet

c) he doesn't need to turn up with all his mates to take out one of your chickens

I suspect he clings to the same argument of it's tradition, that you don't respect?

Or are you telling us 'townies' that foxes eating chickens is a new fad diet? You do appear to expect us to be enlightened by the fact he's in your hen house killing your hens.

One positive though, you have just convinced me that 'country folk' as you represent them should be left well alone.

buckster

Here's a tip

Make your hen houses "fox" proof, secure and locked unless mr fox can pick a lock or carries wire cutters then hens = safe as houses.

Lucy W

Yes, I'm a country person and most people in the country don't want fox hunting. I also keep chickens and shut them up every night securely with no problem from the fox who I regularly see.

How much does a hunt cost per annum and how many foxes does it kill? Not really a practical alternative to good husbandry is it?

While the chicken farmer seems to be the arch enemy of the fox, just remember that Himmler was a chicken farmer before he joined the SS, but he supported banning hunting in Germany in 1939.

Will we never learn from history?

Watchdog

Off track slightly, but there's a piece of primeval forest on the Russian/Polish border which was only survived WW2 because following the Nazi invasion of the east, Reichsmarshal Hermann Goering requisitioned it for himself for the purpose of hunting game. Because of that, it is still intact today and remains a truly unique and remarkable preservation area.

salopian

simple questions to Andrew Finch

How can killing animals for fun be justified?

Kill them to eat them - maybe

Control 'vermin' by humane methods OK

But dress up and act out the hunt - how is this OK?

ANDREW FINCH

I am happy the government and the mp's did a good job with this bill at odds with many Fox hunters i suppose but the majority if not all act within the law now ie we are in 2012 not 1912.

"How can killing animals for fun be justified"

My answer to that is organised shoots, rough shoots,fishing,is not fun at the base of ALL these past times??? whether you eat the subject or not ??.

Control vermin by humane methods debatable is gas humane?? is a snare humane??

The Hunt flush to a waiting gun is that humane??

Your final point "But dress up and act out the hunt" – how is this OK?

You have said it yourself loud and clear "dress up and "act" out the hunt" what law are these people breaking??.

The whole thing is rather silly , I would say the majority of joe public are happy if at all bothered with the ban, the mp's are happy i do not hear any mp's who voted for the ban wanting more ? I believe they act within the law, and i believe they have the right not to be hassled while doing so . I also believe if evidence is handed to the police of any wrong doing it should be acted on,.

Honesty from all sides is what is need on this issue.

Lucy W

Andrew, I think that the real issue here is not to pros and cons of hunting with hounds, nor the regalia worn and socio-enconomic background of participants.

The issue is that we live in a democracy and it is the law that proves us with security and social order.

The hunts flaunts the law because the police don't do anything about it. The 180 convictions relying on the general public to date show that.

To suggest that this is not so locally, yet hide their activity, rather than be open and let everyone know where they will be, just shows that local hunts are flaunting the law.

They do not fear the police, but do fear animal rights organisations who are having success at prosecuting.

Please explain what it is your hunts have to hide?

ANDREW FINCH

"The 180 convictions relying on the general public to date show that".

Lucy these numbers you quote, are these members of the hunt and were these crimes committed during the course of the hunt ? or were the majority of these convictions for poaching offences.

If you indeed wish to catch a group or individual up to mischief wouldn't it be better to have the element of surprise ??, if you had the dates given to you the argument then would be they knew we were coming, these guys cant win .

I do not have relevant dates but from all accounts lets be honest you cant miss them especially on boxing day.

Vulpes Vulpes

You're right - we live in a democracy. The majority of people want hunting banned.

And please don't tell me the 'facts' made up by Countryside Alliance that the majority support hunting - they don't.

Counting the number of your posts and your lengthy comments on here, you probably hunt - so I'm not going to enter a debate with you. You're simply wrong. End of.

Vulpes Vulpes

Apologies Lucy. Put this against the wrong post.

Lucy W

Andrew said "If you indeed wish to catch a group or individual up to mischief wouldn’t it be better to have the element of surprise ??, if you had the dates given to you the argument then would be they knew we were coming, these guys cant win"

If the hunts never broke the law, they would have no problem disclosing every date.

Your arguements may be pathetic, but no one will ever be so pathetic as to say 'they would have broken the law but for the fact they disclosed all their meets'

Honestly *tut*

My amendment to the law would be that hunts must inform the relavant authority where the hounds will be. Other organisations like the EDL have to, what's your objection?

huw

i agree hunting is barbaric

hunting for food is ok

hunting for fun should be banned

Lucy W

huw, its is banned!! Just not enforced.

Watchdog

Frankly, I'm not convinced that "the majority of people want fox hunting banned". The Hunting Act was just a cynical party political ploy and an abuse of parliamentary time. I don't recall taking part in any referendum and I think most people have more pressing issues to worry about. I rather like the idea of politicians playing the role of the fox though. Tony Blair should be first up for that, but seriously, it's really only a "them" and "us" contest with "the rest" who must be in the majority, stood on the sidelines. It seems to me that the "anti bloodsport" ticket is just a different derivative of the same vitriol which fires the Socialist Workers Party and the British National Party, except that it must seem a safer option to the many who range under its banners for the want of something more fulfilling with which to occupy their lives and expend their passions on. I hope to goodness this debate doesn't find its way back onto the letters page because it's clearly a case of "for" or "against" and never the twain shall meet. Soap box away.

Lucy W

Watchdog - we have democracy in the UK, whether you like it or not. We simply can not hold a referendum on every issue that you are not so sure about.

We enjoy many freedoms in our democracy and one of them is, if you don't like it, you are free to leave.

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