Teen beauty spot drinkers are ramblers, not rebels
- Dave Burrows
Letter: Let us pray at council meetings
Wednesday 15th February 2012, 7:50AM GMT.
Well, here we go again, the tail wagging the dog.
I have been a councillor for the Meole Brace ward for more than 10 years and at the start of our council meetings we always have prayers, usually from the Reverend Mark Thomas.
I am in a very privileged position to represent people on the town council and part of that is to remember our fellow man.
We pray for people all over the world who are maybe suffering in a war zone or a famine or an earthquake. We also pray for maybe a councillor who is not well or their partner who is not well or has maybe lost a dear one.
This brings us closer together and gives us time to reflect on our role as caring people.
I was the Shrewsbury town mayor last year and my faith is Roman Catholicism. We included Canon Coonan in our ceremonies and hopefully this will continue in the future to bring all faiths and people together.
Religion has been a target for lots of troubles in the world and even war – but we live in a Christian country and we cannot go on giving up everything that we hold dear.
Maybe the judge who passed this silly rule would do better to look at the bigger problems we have in this country and not waste time on petty problems.
I am sure at Shrewsbury Town Council if any councillor is not happy with prayers they would step outside for the few minutes it takes.
We are elected to look after people and to start our meetings with a prayer it is so harmless and civilised.
Religion is a lovely way to bring up children and because of this it follows us through life.
Let us go forward with the right attitude and say our prayers at our meetings for the people of Shrewsbury and all over the world, not forgetting our Armed Forces.
We are doing no harm to anyone.
This is an old custom which has been with us for many years and should remain. I am sure that in due course the judgement will be changed.
My main question now is, who has paid for this High Court case? No doubt the poor old taxpayer again.
Councillor Kathleen Owen
Meole Brace Ward
See also:
- Leader: Council prayer slot now being threatened
- Oswestry mayor horrified as councils face prayers ban
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Well said , and the odd oik moaned about cost when the prayers are said for 1-2 mins . not one has mentioned the massive court costs this has involved and who has paid for it .
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It takes 2 to take a case to court. If the supernaturalists had voluntarily ended their spooky practices in the first place then there would have been no need to incur court costs.
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Luv it blame the other for costing the tax payer more money .
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The original case as I undersatand it did not cost the taxpayer money.
The ruling didn’t prevent councillors from saying prayers before their meetings – it simply pointed out that it was against current law to have such ritual as part of the formal agenda.
Now we are told that Bideford Council are to appeal – which will cost money for the taxpayer.
Perhaps one of the Christians here could answer this simple question:
I accept you may wish to pray before meetings, and of course you can still do so, but why do you feel it necessary to impose this prayer ritual as a formal agenda item on those that do not?
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Peter most councilors are happy with it , so why not? it takes all but 1 minute , more time is taken looking through the agenda .
We are pampering to the moaning of one or two people or the secular society .
As K clerk said the other day religious and non religious are entitled to a view but these secular atheists are becoming a little tedious and tiresome .
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Andrew,
You didn’t answer the question.
The current ruling allows for those who want to to pray and those that don’t want to, to avoid the ritual.
Your preferred solution seeks to impose the prayer ritual on the latter group. Why? What do Christians feel they have to gain from this?
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Would it be acceptable for each council meeting to be delayed for 2 minutes while those interested in such matters discussed football? After all, anyone who didn’t find it relevant to a civic meeting could step outside and wait.
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It is only a minute or two get some perspective.
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“Religion is a lovely way to bring up children and because of this it follows us through life”
Has Councillor Owen spent the last few years living down a well? She seems to be completely unaware of the level of institutionalised child abuse that has been uncovered within her church. It has certainly followed the thousands of victims through life.
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I would like to echo the above comments from Rob. This is an extraordinary comment particularly as it is from an elected member. Religion has also been the source of untold trauma for teenagers who have ‘come out’ as gay in households where it is deemed a sin. Many teenagers have run away from home or been ostracised by their parents. I do hope this judgement on removing payers from Council agenda stands. Maybe Cllr Owen needs to be aware of the views of her constituents before making her own views so public. Given the other comments on here it seems she is in a minority.
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Couldn’t agree more Rob.
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We might also add those kids who had such ‘lovely upbringings’ in segregated areas of places like Belfast, upbringings which included learning to hate people of the opposing faith.
Or the girls who spent parts of their childhood in the disgusting Magdalene Laundries, often for such ‘crimes’ as talking to boys at the school gates.
I do have respect for individual faith as long as its not forced down other people’s throats.
But what I can’t abide is organisations like the Catholic Church, which have not only caused so many of the problems in the world, but have also come over all pious and caring while they’ve been doing it.
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Rather interesting comment but all depends which religion we are talking about it , do some posters know the difference.?
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“Rather interesting comment but all depends which religion we are talking about it , do some posters know the difference.?”
Those who have bothered to read and understand the original letter and subsequent comments don’t appear to be in any doubt – why didn’t you do the same?
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Commenting on this letter.
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There are thousands upon thousands of priests, nuns, vicars and pastors, all doing wonderful self,sacrificing and brave work for the needy of the world. How come some people only remember the few dozen satanic peadophiles who use the church to make a bee-line for children ?
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I agree, try telling that to the countless muslim girls that get locked away and forced to wear what they are tol and marry who they are told.
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Councillor Owen, if you listen to the tide of opinion flowing from the people whom you claim to represent, you will understand that the majority do not wish religion to be mixed in with the political process.
Council time should be for Council business. If you insist on putting your personal beliefs first, you are doing a disservice to the people of Shrewsbury.
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WHAT? posters on here are the majority all 20 of us mmmmmmmm think not.
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You should have read the responses to the article on the BBC web site. All 1,196 of them. Then ranked them in order of “most popular” first to get a feel for the tide of opinion. Your views are in line with Cllr. Owen’s, but way out of kilter with the majority, Andrew.
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Jake, those who use blogs like this and the BBC are in no way representative of the country as a whole, so you cannot use that to argue for the “tide of opinion”.
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So, Richard, what’s your barometer? The opinions of your immediate peer group? Gut feeling? Or have you been out canvassing with a clipboard recently and have your own data (which in itself is only representative of the opinions of those who are predisposed to responding to random street surveys, going by your own logic)?
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Well said, Jake and Rob.
Keep religion out of politics
(and education while we’re at it).
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I do have an enormous sympathy with the many devout Christians who willingly serve as Councillors in local government. This simple act marks a both a commitment to certain principles and acts as a conscious separation between a personal focus and a community focus.
It may well be that in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society – in which I include atheists and humanists, whose ‘faith’ is that they have no religious beliefs – the time may have come to think carefully and more inclusively about this ‘act of commitment’
It is not difficult to frame a form of prayer which embraces all monotheistic faiths. The prayer is then directed to a Supreme Being in general, with no reference to any of the prophets or promulgators of a particular faith. When you start to think around other beliefs, then the challenges are of course much greater. We already have multiple religious texts and affirmation in our courts.
I would urge those who feel strongly on this issue that it is part of their commitment to service that they respect others’ beliefs and to seek forms of words which embody that commitment without religion-specific content. How each individual reconciles or interprets that within the confines of their own beliefs is then personal and private.
A challenge to those with good command of language.
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There are many more that willingly serve the community without feeling the need to qualify it as a Christian act and, yawn, claim that they alone have morality and show concern for other people and wider society. This aethiest is chair of governors at a C of E primary school. A demonstration in point that religion has little to do with anything beyond the personal belief!
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ANON please state which that school is, also did you state this when putting yourself forward as chair of governors ?, when telling parents about yourself.
I doubt very much you would do or did either HYPOCRITE social climber of the first order.
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I’ve always thought that ‘We’re here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is.’ is as good as anything.
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I’m sick of hearing about people’s religious views and their rights to pray. No ones stopping you do it, but it should be done in the right place and that’s not in a council meeting. After reading the Bishop of Shrewsbury’s comment on gay marriage, I think our children are best brought up in a world without religion.
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Completely agree Ed.
At my last Parish Council meeting we only spent 10 minures in a heated debate regarding Council Tax, nothing of this has been reported.
Yet time is wasted and reported in the national and local press regarding religion.
Every crisis experienced throughout the world that has resulted in innocent people being killed has religion at its base.
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Yes Telford Ron, but which religion? Not Chritianity….. unless you want to go back to the into history.There are plenty of atrocities perpetrated against Christians nowadays. People try to use your argument against Christianity when they really mean to argue about religiosity. Anyway, as a church going, bible believing Christian I dont think prayers should be foisted upon those who dont believe. It should be easy enough to hold prayers for those who want them for a couple of minutes before the meeting starts.
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Spot on Ed. Religion has caused more friction and trouble in this world than anything else. Praying to imaginary friends has never helped a tiny bit. Human co-operation is the best hope we have.
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Which tail does Mrs Owen think is wagging the dog? While I believe that those who want to take part in prayers should not be prevented from doing so, but they should not be part of the formal agenda. Prayer is not part of our national way of life. The MORI survey of “Christians” from the 2011 census found that only just over half of the just over half who answered in the census that they were Christians prayed at least one per month, by choice. The figures are 48% of 54%, meaning that only 26% of the country prays by choice. This is the tail that is wagging the dog, not secularists.
Search the internet for “Foundation for Reason and Science” for the full survey.
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Isn’t that the organisation started and run by Richard Dawkin ? Perhaps you should take those results with a pinch of salt.
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The poll was conducted by MORI quite independent from Richard Dawkins. The Christian label in Britain nowadays is much more a signifier of culture rather than religion. True believers are becoming a rare breed.
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Councillor Owen, no one is stopping you saying prayers, the ruling was that prayers should not be an item on the agenda.
I think you will that for most people this was the first time they realised that prayers were said in council meetings and that the council taxpayer was footing the bill.
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To answer the councillor’s main question, I believe The Christian Institute met the legal costs of the case, so nothing to do with the tax payer.
This was a question of whether it is right for religion to have a place in politics. If you really do care about everyone you represent then it does not. A victory for common sense.
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Well said Councillor Owen! Wish we had you in Porthill ward!
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I wish she was in my ward too. So I could vote against her….
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How typical of Iron Flag to wish to impose his narrow views on others.
The councillor has completely missed the point of the ruling – or, more likely hasn’t read it. As things stood, where prayers were included as a formal agenda item, councillors who did not attend could be declared as late for the meeting as a result.
No councillor without such supernatural beliefs would object to the formalities of the meeting starting a little later so that those with beliefs in a deity can have their prayers.
It is solely the inclusion of prayers as a formal agenda item that is in question. No one’s rights to pray have been impinged upon at all in this ruling – all that has happened is that the rights of those who do not wish to be forced against their will to observe or participate in such arcane ritual have been reinforced and preserved.
It’s simply a case of live and let live and simple tolerance of the views of others. Something which Iron Flag has repeatedly shown he has no concept of whatsoever.
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I wouldn’t normally take Iron Flag’s comments seriously but I do just wonder how the Christian values he claims to espouse go together with his characterisation of ‘lefties’ – ie anyone who’d like to see a bit more fairness and tolerance in society – as ‘knuckle-dragging thugs’ and the rest of it.
This is even odder when you consider that Christ himself comes across in the bible as being rather a Marxist. He certainly gave capitalism short shrift ; witness his overturning of the money-changers tables in the temple, his sermon about it being harder for rich men to enter God’s kingdom than to pass through a needle’s eye etc.
His redistributionist instincts, meanwhile, are very much in evidence in stories such as the feeding of the five thousand.
That Christ could be viewed as a forerunner of Iron Flag’s hated lefties is actually something very much in his favour, and makes the faith he inspired something worth respecting.
It’s the institutions that have been built up around that faith that are the problem (the Catholic Church in particular has a centuries long history of cruelty, oppression and hypocrisy), along with the self-importance of popes, priests and others who set themselves up as our spiritual guides
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As the judge said, anyone can say prayers. Just not in the actual meeting, which would exclude those councillors who do not believe in the particular god being prayed to.
Seems a sensible decision to me.
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Instead of wasting your breath praying for those in war zones or in famine stricken countries, why not do something that helps? Have q whip round, send some aid, etc. If you do feel the need to talk to your God, why don’t you ask him why he felt it necessary to allow people to suffer in war zones or die in famine? “……the Lord taketh away….” apparently!
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It’s such a shame that people don’t know as much about theology as our parents did a generation or so ago.It would not have been necessary to explain that Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that ever since the Adam sold the human race to satan we are in a degrading and degenerating world. God has no responsibilty for us unless we give ourselves to Him. The bible tells us that satan is the prince of this world….for the time being.
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What an utter cop out, I can’t believe that in 2012 people still believe this muck.
You are aware that Adam & Eve did not exist aren’t you? It is proven FACT that we evolved from a common ancestor with primates. There was not garden of Eden, no snake, etc. Even many bible scholars accept that the story of Adam & eve is nonsensical!
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I would vote for her if she and her husband stood out from the crowd and said, “we will perform the duty of councillors for the good and benefit of our constituents and therefore will no longer claim our generous allowances.”
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Is this religious zealot fit to be a councillor with these views ? Are her loyalties to Rome or to the Queen, I think she should be struck off for this, she is clearly spying and sending information back to the Vatican. And they dont beleive in contraception, what old fashioned nonesense
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Not wishing to get involved in the catholic church as a CofE PERSON but your comment.
“And they dont beleive in contraception”, is actually incorrect they just do not condone modern contraception .
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“And they dont beleive in contraception”, is actually incorrect they just do not condone modern contraception
…they just don’t condone reliable contraception..
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They dont believe that contraception is good for women’s bodies.They have a point. They believe that husbands should respect their wives menstrual cycle. They have another point.
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‘they don’t believe that contraception is good for women’s bodies’
I think you’ll find Catholic teaching doesn’t give a fig about women’s bodies – since endless childbearing is what wives are supposed to go through.
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“They believe that husbands should respect their wives menstrual cycle.”
I suspect you would find some basic biological knowledge useful – have a word with your school nurse?
You may also be confusing ‘respect’ with the notion of menstruating women being ‘unclean’.
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Defo an ex teacher has to be.
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Praying at home, praying in church, compulsory acts of worship in state schools. Prayers in council chambers. Enough praying already. Which country does councillor Owen think she is in? Iran? Why can’t the religious pray silently. Their god is meant to be all seeing, all hearing, all dancing. Surely he doesn’t need to be shouted at. Just because in their ignorance people have been on their knees for centuries doesn’t mean that this primitive practice needs to continue in modern times. Move into the 21st century and grow up.
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So you are a fundamentalist atheist? a group it seems to be hip to be in at the moment even if a little tiresome.
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Andrew, all that atheists do is protesting at the liberties taken by the godly. You may call it tiresome; I call it self-defence.
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Paranoid Atheists, who suffer such low self esteem that assume a christian spends their time looking down upon them.
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“fundamentalist atheist”
Do you mean someone who really, really, really doesn’t believe in any God? The word you’re looking for is ‘atheist’.
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It is called over egging it, as an atheist keeps doing when they talk about Christians so yes a functionalist atheist.
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What a load of rubbish, people choose to be atheist because they beleive in common sense and science.
I think its absolutly appauling that prayers are on the agenda at council meetings. If councilors dont have common sense or the ability to beleive in science then what the hell are they doing in a position making inportant decisions on behalf of us.
Councilors who beleive in this rubbish should stand down from their positions at once.
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“functionalist atheist.”
Hmmm, another interesting variety. Are you worried about the lesser spotted kind too?
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Aren’t councillor Owen and her merry band of prayers fine upstanding citizens. Full of concerns for the ills of mankind. And what a splendid job all their praying does! Tsunamis, earthquakes, disease, untold suffering all over the place. And where is their beloved skydaddy in all of this? Not much in evidence it would seem. Here is some sound advice Mrs. Owen: pray a little harder still, but do it in your own time.
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In all this furore, this letter,with its “Pollyanna”-like view of religion ,is the strongest argument I have read for the importance of separating religion from political life.
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Even in the USA,(despite the fact evolution is taught as a theory, and they have more church goers than us)they have separation of church and state. Although I certainly don’t agree with all things American this and freedom of speech are great and good!
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[I think you will that for most people this was the first time they realised that prayers were said in council meetings and that the council taxpayer was footing the bill.]
I cannot get over the number of people who do not realise that councillors get very generous allowances.
County councillors £12,00 per annum
Town Councillors £3,500 per annum
Yet you speak to the man in the street and they say,” but I thought it was a form of public service, time given to the community selflessly”
The way this councillor speaks you’d think that she has had lessons from Shirley Tart in being sychophantic!
I hope that she does not get elected another four years on the gravy train.
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Just a quick reply Eva, Hadley & Leegomery Parish Council have voted AGAINST any type of councillor payment for the last 6 years.
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Of course they do in the ideal world they would do it all for free and as i have said in the past ban payments and lets see who we still have and lets see what new blood we get .
However they are paid i knew one lady who never had a job but her Councillor role was her very generous income.
People who are unaware these people are paid clearly do not care if they did they would know the role and payment of councilors etc .
As for preying change of tact after thinking about it, stop preying, it gives the atheist something to moan about .
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I see a lot of dislike towards Christians in the letters on this site. This country was built upon Christian values and our laws were based on the ten commandments. All councils and courts and people in pubic office and schools etc. prayed as a matter of course because they all believed. It’s taken two generations at most to take Christianity from the dynamic force for good that our parents knew and united the nation, to the status of a cult where those who go to church are seen as ‘nutters’. What a shame. We are reaping a bitter harvest.
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Hmmm, aren’t you a bit overly interested in these people in people in PUBIC office ?
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i think any of these magicians practicing their witchcraft and mumbling at council meetins should be thrown out for bringing the meeting into disripute, if people beleive in pixies and fairies are they really fit to hold office? their judgement and brainpower is clearly not fit for purpose, they cannot make rational decisions if they beleive in imaginary beings
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A council meeting is not the appropriate place for prayer…what next? Readings from the Koran?
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Listen people, this has been going on for decades and decades without causing any people any harm. With all the destruction going on in the world and with all the savage cuts being implemented by this shambolic government, what harm is a simple prayer doing?? people have the option of not being present when prayers are taking place.
I have no interest in prayers or religion but i do know their is no harm being done by people who wish to carry on with tradition and participate with prayers.
Lighten up folks eh….
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the luddites who pray in public meetings should be named and shamed so we can vote them out
prayer and church is a voluntary activity when they are in that chamber they are working for us on our time so this is skiving on the job in effect
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Forced opinion, false piety, hypocricy and dishonesy puts everyone off. Let us not ask “Which football team do you support”? Let us get on with the job; to pray is to work to work is to pray. Job done!
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I think its absolutly appauling that prayers are on the agenda at council meetings. If councilors dont have common sense or the ability to beleive in science then what the hell are they doing in a position making inportant decisions on behalf of us.
Councilors who beleive in this rubbish should stand down from their positions at once.
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Einstein did’t believe in a personal God but his thought on spirituality is interesting. Check out Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Descartes Pascal, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin and Planck. If we are energy and energy cannot be destroyed where does that energy go when we die? It is a question my thirteen year old daughter asked me. Are there any bright sparks out there that can explain. Thank you.
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