Letter: High salaries cannot be justified at council
Friday 25th November 2011, 8:34AM GMT.
Shropshire Council need to make nearly £80 million savings over the next four years.
The chief executive of the Shropshire Council is paid an annual salary of £200,000.
How can he be paid more than the Prime Minister who is in the highest position as a civil servant?
On top of this, 285 Shropshire Council workers are paid an annual salary of £50,000 plus.
They will all be on strike next week, not happy with their pension pots. How can their salaries be justified?
It’s just like running a household or business really. If you haven’t got the money coming in you shouldn’t be spending this kind of money on salaries. The books have to balance.
J Lawrence,
Shrewsbury
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and they have the downright cheek to strike over pensions!? You should try getting a pension when employed in the private sector, then see if it meets the standard the public sectors ones do! Wages are no where near that kind of pay in my area for us in the private sector either. It’s just ridiculous, should all be ashmed of yourselves for striking! Join the real world!
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Bob,
I’m really bored of reading comments like this one that repeat the same tired old nonsense about public sector workers.
There is a huge difference between the wages enjoyed by those at the top at Shropshire Council and the amount paid to the grassroots employees and it makes no sense to tar them with the same brush as you have done here. People don’t seem to find it difficult to differentiate between the unjustifiably huge salaries and bonuses of bankers in the City, and the wages of the staff who clean or work behind the counter at their local Barclays. Is it really so difficult to make the same distinction here too? The salaries Kim Ryley and buddies enjoy are poles apart from those paid to, for example, care workers (who can hardly be described as not living in the real world). In lumping them together, all you are doing is exposing your own ignorance and prejudice. And before you say it, no, I do not work for the Council.
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I hope people take note of this! It is important to differentiate between the front line workers the middle and higher management. Those at the coal face are under just as much pressure as the rest if us.
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1) According to the Hutton Review of fair pay the PM’s total annual package is worth around £600,000. Furthermore, people don’t run for PM for the money, they do it for the lucrative opportunities that follow. Look at Tony Blair… he’s hardly struggling.
2) I would be surprised if any employees in the £50k+ bracket will be striking.
3) Any company with 11,253 staff turning over £628,000,000 will have a chief executive on more than £200k and certainly more than 285 people on £50k+. The figures may make uncomfortable reading for some, but people can expect to be remunerated at the market rate; why should they accept less? Would you?
I have no links with the Council. I work in the private sector and live in the real world.
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“why should they accept less? Would you?”
I had little choice, i was told “you’re taking a pay cut or you can join the dole queue”
Not like we had a union to support us to strike, like it lump it basically.
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The same choice just imposed at the council – a wage cut this year and another one next year…..
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But Bob, there was nothing to stop you or your colleagues joining a union and protesting – just as for those in the private sector with final salary pension schemes there was nothing to stop staff getting together and protesting when greedy employers stopped funding their pension schemes and gave the money to their fat cat directors and shareholders instead.
Did you not read abut the 3,000 percent increase in salaries for FTSE 100 director over the past 30 years? Did you think that this extra money came from some magic capitalist fairy? It didn’t – it came out of our pockets, whether private or public sector.
It’s a pity that people didn’t protest when they had the chance, and I sympathise with what they’ve lost, but it’s a bit churlish to then protest at those who can at least be bothered to put up a fight.
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The idea that we have to pay local council bigwigs the same as people would earn in big companies in order to attract the best people, is fallacious .
Companies must make money by making, creating or selling a product or service, the same does not apply to the council.
We do not have the option not to buy their services and not to pay for them, all they have to do is to take as much from the public by putting up rates and charges as far as they can.
Leaders of large companies are paid for the amount of money they generate, not for the amount they “legally” (in some cases not)steal or spend.
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How so? The basic rules of business apply in both cases: control costs and maximise efficiency. The idea that you can pay less and still attract people who have the right skills is nonsense because the wrong decisions have a direct impact on everyone’s council tax.
While the salaries may be appropriate, the question of whether the current executive consists of the right people hitting the right targets in the right ways and earning those large salaries is a subject for an entirely different debate.
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“…control costs and maximise efficiency. The idea that you can pay less and still attract people who have the right skills is nonsense because the wrong decisions have a direct impact on everyone’s council tax.”
Wise words Jake. So why do we see so much waste and pointless projets, that often have to be changed at taxpayers cost, because some overpaid bright spark got it wrong the first time round?
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How So! Is simple they do not have have to create business to make a profit on which their salaries are based.
If these people were so good at their jobs we would see our rates going down and increased services, instead we have rates going up and decreased service.
If they were producing results like that in the real world they would be out of the door in double quick time.
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I agree that there should be a performance related element to the pay structure, based on cost and efficiency savings, i.e. delivering true value for money, rather than a blanket salary and this should be the case for all budget holders throughout the hierarchy. However, the on-target salary should still be realistic for the positions held.
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Ken,
Your view that the excessive amounts paid to senior execs in the private sector is somehow a reflection of the growth in their companies is simply not supported by the evidence. We have seen a 3 thousand percent increase in FTSE 100 sentior exec salaries in the past 30 years – the growth in share values has been nowhere near that amount.
High pay in the upper ecehlons of the private sector is completely out of control – and lower paid workers suffer as a result of this greed – whether public or private sector.
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Yes I agree, I did not mean to imply I thought they were worth the money or that there is some sort of equality between business profits and leaders pay, only that was the rational behind the pay as opposed to the public sector, where they do not have to make a profit. Whatever the CE of Ford (for instance) is paid, if they do not make and then sell cars at a profit the company will go bust.
My thoughts are that in the private sector people should be free to make their own choices as to pay, their companies are the ones paying and we have free choice in the matter of buying their services. Always assuming we do have a free choice and our government do not use our money to bail out insolvent banks.
But as you rightly point out in the private sector high level salaries have ballooned in recent years, I deplore the idea that the public sector should follow suit considering the basic difference, we choose to buy a product from the private sector, they can and do use the full force of the law to make you pay in the public sector including sending in the bailiffs and even sending you to prison.
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I most certainly dont agree with the huge pay cheques the top people get in the Council – but I very much doubt that it is these 285 (out of 6000+) that are planning strike action, as they are far too close with their Tory buddies at the top to strike.
It is the wage disparity that is the problem, that a few people share the majority of the wealth…echoes national politics.
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The Chief Executive is not paid £200,000. He is paid £160,000. This is the head of an organisation with over 8000 staff. The equivalent pay in the private sector is likely to be far higher. Average pay at the Council is below £25,000, less than the national average and Mr Ryley and his pals have managed to force lesser terms and conditionsd on staff. The real issue at the Council is the number of middle managers earning £45,000 plus. I know of one service with 100 staff and 24 middle managers. The majority of them are still in post but about 15 front line posts have been axed.
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I worked in shirehall a few years ago in a team of 15 staff, we had a head of service and 5 senior managers for the team!
I now work for a small estate agents with 25 staff there is the MD and two senior managers.
Enough said!
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agreed. the council doesnt make anything. it doesnt create any wealth. therefore they should be paid less. simples.
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Jim,
Perhaps yu should look at the wealth-creating example of Sir Philip Green and Top Shop.
Most of the goods they sell are made abroad. So not much wealth creation for the UK there. Many of their staff are paid at, or near, the minimum wage – and thus will possibly be entitled to ‘top-up’ benefits, so the taxpayer is most likely subsidising Sir Philip’s status as an employer.
And to cap it all, he shipped every penny of the profits of Top Shop abroad, via his non-domiciled wife, so the exchequer was deprived of any tax benefit of all his wealth creation. So following your flawed logic, because he creates little or no wealth for us, we should pay his staff in his shops less – is that right?
There’s a great deal more to real value than just wealth creation…
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Although worthy, that is an entirety different argument. Top Shop creates money from its activities for its investors.
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Peter, you don’t have to shop at top shop but we all have to “shop” at the council that we are unfortunately attached to…no competition or choice …can you not see that?
You are getting really boring going on about private industries and what they pay.
If councils were run on performance and to make the same profits as private businesses they would fold within six months, due to poor quality , overpaid management…can you not see that? Most of us here can.
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Roadrunner,
I think you’re missing my point – of course we don’t have to shop at Top Shop, but there are many other businesses who are up to the same tricks, resulting in a massive annual hole in the exchequer’s coffers. Up to £150bn per year that might have been expected in taxes is instead being shipped abroad.
Since the government is unwilling to close these loopholes for their friends the wealthy, somehow, that hole needs to be filled – for example by increases in VAT for people, by cuts to public services, by lowering the threshold at which people on much more modest salaries fall into the higher rate tax bracket, and yes, it appears by cutting pensions for low-paid public sector workers.
We, the general public, private and public sector, have no choice whatsoever but to fork out these extra taxes to make up the shortfall, while the likes of Sir Philip Green run off with our cash.
I’m sorry if my presentation of facts is boring you, but I think it important that people understand the true nature of the ‘holes’ in our economy.
I can point you to many people in private sector businesses who are poor-quality and overpaid – earning many multiples of what higher paid public servants get. On the rare occasions they do fall on their swords, they typically walk off with many millions by way of a ‘golden goodbye’.
That money has to come from somewhere – and of course it comes from us, the consumers.
And Ken, are you really suggesting that because a firm makes a profit it’s OK for them not to pay their fair share in tax?
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I am not suggesting anything about Tax! Quite obviously if they make a profit in this country that should in my opinion be taxed in this country according to rules made by our government.
Tax loopholes are a matter that the governments should sort out, unfortunately as discussed before many of those tax schemes are created by the EU which allows a company to claim losses made in other countries to be set gains profits made in this country, but prevents our governments from taxing profits made in other countries. Please note our government has lost several cases about this matter in the ECJ, those rulings more than fill your black hole and they are legal under EU law.
I actually think you are aiming your arrows at the wrong target, Top shop and their ilk are only making the most of the tax regime that has been made available to them, the fact that it forces us British people to pay more is not of interest to those who are intent on creating a greater European Union.
One further point, would it not be better if governments spent less money, if they were for instance only allowed by law to spend an amount equal to receipts, instead of mortgaging our children’s future.
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Surely the debate should be ‘are they earning the wage they are being paid’, not ‘are they being paid to much’!
In any industry or commerce you need a ‘leader’ who’ll both optimise the present and have the foresight to plan for a robust future.
If you find someone who can do that by leading from the front by example from experience and knowledge and all KPIs are acheived, pay them what they are worth.
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Let’s look at the bigger picture here
1 Many people who work for the council (dinner ladies,roadsweepers,cleaners etc are not exatly highly paid (many on minimum wage)
2 There are tiers and tiers of managers in many councils (many on 50k and above)
3 Quite a number of top officer posts on 100k plus.
I don’t begrudge low paid workers a modest pension after 40 years service,however I would like to see councils re-configured as that no body in a public sector job can earn above 50k.
The old town clerks of years ago got nothing like the salaries and benefits that council officers are picking up today.
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these parasites in the public sector are no better than the looters. they take take take from the public purse and they have the cheek to strike for more pensions when most people cant get a pension anymore. they are disgraceful human beings
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Cut the wages the fat cats receive and you can cut the council tax that all hard working people have to pay. People on average wages struggle to pay this tax, whilst the fat cats drive home in their brand new cars and 5 bedroom homes. Disgraceful.
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“whilst the fat cats drive home in their brand new cars and 5 bedroom homes.”
Posh mobile homes?
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Ha! Ha! very funny and witty. I meant they will be driving TO their 5 bedroom homes….
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blue boy, where do you get all that anger from, how can you generate so much venom about people that are just like you, trying to survive in very dificult times, as for the pensions, how much do you really understand about this subject, I suggest very little. I work in the public sector and have done for many years, like you I have payed my taxes, NI and the like, my salery does not merrit me getting the label of paracite, or disgracful human being. I find your comments very offensive.
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i agree public sector should be paid less, its not making profit so why reward it? running social type services its just not the same level of responsibility or talent. To pay so much is not needed people choose to do the work as they get a buzz out of helping people – its almost as bad as these charities like oxfam and such where their CEO is paid fat cat wages. what ever happened to community spirit?
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“running social type services its just not the same level of responsibility or talent”
It can be the difference between life and death. I certainly can’t say the same about my job.
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totally agree. my dealings with the council reveal them to be very limited. staff are not worth it they are thick frankly. dont deserve such fat cat pay
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In my dealings with the council I have found them excellent. All the people in the Shrewsbury Library Archives are always willing to help you in any research that you are doing,suggesting, papers, books, drawings etc. where you can find the information you require. What ever time you go there they are always busy.
Speak as you find !!!!
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So far this year my family have lost our Working Family Tax Credits , Our Child Tax Credits. Also i’ve lost around £4000.00 in lost sales from my commission based job, and to top it all off the company want to re-negotiate the commission structure ( obviously not to our benefit )..
I’ve now had to take a part time job to try to put back some of the lost earnings which are somewhere in the region of £6000,00-£8000’00 per annum..
I can not afford to take unpaid time off to look after my children because a bunch of public sector workers feel a little bit hard done by so go on strike for the day whilst leaving their children in taxpayer subsidised kids clubs ..
Why don’t you try and live in my world for a while, that’ll give you something to grumble about..
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Hang on a minute, why do you think people are getting high salaries then ?
some of these managers manage sick and dying people, have hundreds of staff, are responsible for millions of pounds worth of property, assets and revenue, have degrees coming out of their ears and have 30 years plus experience in the job.
SO what do you have to do to get a good salary in this country then ??
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What do you have to do to get high pay?
Work in the private sector.
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if they cannot figure out a way to collect cardboard they do not deserve to be paid at all.
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people in the public sector should have their salary capped to reduce taxes for the rest of us but this would also help businesses because generally wage costs would go down it would result in decreased competition making wages generally more affordable thus more jobs more growth etc it also means the real top talent brains in the uk would go into making profit and making economic growth not doing medicine and civil service and things which whilst noble is a waste of top brains from an economic perspective
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Why does a council NEED a chief executive?
Executive power in the council lies with the elected councillors who form the cabinet. They decide strategy, policy etc, which is what the CE does in a private company.
So, what does the council’s CE do?
Let me give you a clue: the same job used to be done by the Clerk to the Councillors.
£60k pa would be generous
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Yes I agree with that, it is the local bureaucrats running the show rather than those we elect. If this continues we might as well not bother electing anyone.
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