Call to repeal fox hunting ban
Thursday 27th October 2011, 10:30PM BST.
Police in Shropshire and Mid Wales have never cautioned, proceeded against or fined anybody under controversial fox hunting legislation since it came in, rural campaigners claimed today.
The Countryside Alliance said it believes the Hunting Act should now be repealed because it has seldom been used since it came into force in 2005 and shows police time is ‘wasted by the unworkable and misdirected Hunting Act’.
The figures were provided to campaigners by the Ministry of Justice for police forces in England and Wales.
They show people associated with hunts registered with the Council of Hunting Associations, the body representing more than 330 hunts and over more than 70 clubs, have rarely been cautioned, proceeded against in court, fined or convicted under the act.
The campaigners’ figures for traditional hunting areas like Shropshire and Powys suggest West Mercia Police and Dyfed-Powys Police have never fined, cautioned or prosecuted anyone in court using the legislation.
Toby Shergold, West Mercia Police spokesman said today: “As the Countryside Alliance report is targeting the Hunting Act, we do not think it is suitable for the police to comment on what is a political issue.”
No-one was available from Dyfed-Powys Police.
Nationwide, the key findings of the report suggest 97 per cent of convictions since the Hunting Act came into force relate to poaching or other casual hunting activities, including at least seven people who have been convicted of hunting rats.
And since 2005, 12 police forces covering hunt areas, including Devon and Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bedfordshire, Dorset and South Wales, have not issued a single caution, and have not proceeded against, fined or convicted any individual associated with a registered hunt.
Alice Barnard, chief executive of the Countryside Alliance, said: “With the opening meets of the hunting season just around the corner, these statistics are a damning indictment of the expensive and failed Hunting Act.
“As a piece of legislation it is has been condemned widely – including by those who created it, yet law-abiding hunts are still forced to go about their daily lives under the threat of harassment and intimidation from saboteurs who then waste police time pursuing cases that never see the light of day.
“The evidence is now overwhelming: the Hunting Act must be repealed.”
By Tom Johannsen
Thanks for all your fox hunting comments – this discussion is now closed.
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What are they saying, that people are breaking the law and getting away with it? Or has fox hunting stopped as they are all obeying the law? I am not bothered either way on hunting but what is their point?
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The hunt tell us that support for hunting has increased since the ban so why the need to make it legal again? Also, the thousands of job losses never happened so surely everyone is happy?
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“As a piece of legislation it is has been condemned widely” … said a spokesperson for the Countryside Alliance.
Perhaps in your circles. Nowhere else though.
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Great idea! Let’s have bull fighting as well. And that other one where you throw a donkey from a church tower.
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There have never been any murders in my street. It’s high time the law against murder in my street was repealed.
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Have these yobs nothing better to do with their time. Pathetic backwards thinking cretins. What next reintroduce bear baiting? cock fighting perhaps. Keep the ban-get another “pastime”
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“Police in Shropshire and Mid Wales have never cautioned, proceeded against or fined anybody under controversial fox hunting legislation since it came in”
All that proves is that either
a) the law is being adhered to, so obviously no-one has been prosecuted for breaking it
or
b) the law is being broken and the police are not bothering to enforce it.
Scarcely a case for repeal.
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Is this a news report? Reads like an editorial.
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I’m clearly having a thick day, because I don’t understand why it needs repealing, just because no one has been convicted. Surely that just means that as a piece of legislation, it’s a strong and effective deterent?
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Yet again the Shropshire Star are on the side of the fox hunters… what a surprise. The practice does upset a lot of people in this area – but lets ignore them and just present the one side of the arguement.
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Or lets just look at things in a calm non-hysterical manner and come to a logical conclusion
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if there’s been no convictions, then presumably the law is working so no need to change it!
By the way all the scare stories about throusands of country people being made reducndant, hounds having to be destroyed, have all proved to be completely wrong, and just deliberate misinformation from the Countyrside Alliance.
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The law needs repeal because it is full of legal loopholes which make it unworkable in any real sense, it costs the taxpayer a small fortune to see cases go to court and then be thrown out. Given the current financial situation would you not agree that this money would be better spent elsewhere?
The law was more to do with petty social politics and little to do with actual animal rights issues, even Alum Michaels PPS admitted this in a statement to the Telegraph. Why do we still have this stupid, impractical and non-sensical legislation.
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So this is the start of the Countryside Alliance trying to get their blood-thirsty ‘sport’ back.
We don’t need it and don’t want it. It’s outdated, cruel and barbaric. End of.
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not so much the start, if you had bothered to follow the activities of the Countryside Alliance you would have realised that they had been campaigning on this issue for many years
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The oicks have lost their day of fun, big deal.
Dog fighting is illegal, and that is one on one. Fox hunting was legal and the odds were not as good.
It was not vital to any cause, so leave it to stagnate.
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Foxes are still being killed by hunts, so what are they complaining about? They just want to kill more and do it legally.
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I doubt if most police officers, even in an entire career, have arrested anyone for serious crimes such as murder or rape.
If we follow the flawed logic of the Countryside Alliance, then presumably we’d repeal those laws too.
They really are clutching at straws, as well as chewing them…
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Fox hunting was not banned… Hunting with DOGS was.
Leave the little pups at home by the fire and use a herd of cats instead
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The hunting ban has been adhered to and yet we hear antis say it is not. but they have no prosecutions figures to back it up.
Hunting with dogs as such is not banned why? because you can still use lurchers , terriers, for numerous hunting activity’s , 2 hounds can still be used to flush a fox .
If the bill is studied properly with out over emotional sides jumping up and down anyone can see it is a pointless piece of legislation and for the sake of clarity needs to be repealed , if only to stop the time wasting phone calls to the police.
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Yea, you just can’t use a dog to rip a living animal to pieces. I don’t think that’s pointless. I have no problem with people using dogs to flush out their prey. I do have a huge problem with the mindless cruelty of using dogs to actually kill that prey. How clear can we possibly make it?
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Rabbits, rats , neither are covered by the law. terriers and lurchers are used to do do both.
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Obviously never seen a fox instantly dispatched by a hound and never seen a fox shot several times before it is actually stopped, if indeeed it is.
Sadly yet again fanciful and romantic notions of the perfect way to run the countryside.
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The prolonged terror the animal suffers prior to its demise is the issue.
If a dog was subjected to a similar experience, the owner would find themselves facing a prison sentence, irrespective of how quick the actual death was.
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So its the terror before death your bothered about?
Well I suggest you stop buying Halal meat and if you don’t think you buy it, then ask your supermarket what has been slaughtered by UK humane standards and what has been slaughtered by exemption – you might have a surprise as they don’t label the method of slaughter.
Practice what you preach.
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Lucy, please stick to the topic. Once again you’re drifting off at a tangent.
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I have actually read the Hunting Act 2004. I feel I can say I have studied it and it’s not pointless. It spells out quite clearly that you can not hunt fox, deer or hare with hounds. Yes it does mention flushing witha maximum of two dogs is permitted – but not hunting with two dog.
The legislation is very to the point, clear and workable.
Either the law is not being broken or the police are a bunch of muppets who couldn’t catch a cold.
From my experience of local policing I would imagine that tearing around the countryside with 40 dogs, 100 horses, everyone shouting tally ho and blowing horns whilst chasing a fox could be done with impunity.
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Well Lucy, lets hope that you dont urgently need “muppets” when you are in danger, suffer from a burglary, or assault, fraud, harassment, anti-social behaviour, criminal damage, etc… I trust you career entails a nice safe job…
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Well actually I have required police assistance and can confirm that the local policing response made the Keystone Cops look like the Sweeny.
My job is safe because I manage risk, not because it is risk free.
I guess you are a police officer and imagine that instead of trying to assist me and create good will with the public, you will continue to display the arrogance and ignorance that has corrupted local police.
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“time wasting calls to the police”. All this from a man that backs hunt riders senselessly and foolishly galloping across and down the busy A41 without regard for anyone except their own blood lust to kill and destroy one of our indiginous animals and smear blood of the faces of their young.
We spent millions aiding the death of a tyrant in Libya – we should look deeper into our society and rid it of these cruel savages aka “hunters”.
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All rather over the top stereo type reactions by some . How you can possibly compare fox hunting with libya is astonishing .
Did the mi5 once say a few years ago one of the biggest threats in the uk was the behavior of animal rights activists?deal with that first, nobody is breaking the law with regards the main topic on here asking for something is not illegal it is called freedom of speach.
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Fair point but you seem to have over looked that the hunts don’t have vast oil reserves.
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This nonsense has already cost so much , Its just socialist prejudice of affluent country folk enjoying the hunt, before anyone has a soap box polemical just ask yourself have you ever been blooded or actually been involved in a thrilling chase upon a hunt?
Suffice the suggestion of animal cruelty is a hypocritical ignorance of vermin , hunting with dogs is an English tradition promoting social cohesion within rural communities .Hunting is a cohesive part of the management of the English countryside , its not for everyone ,thats fine but I would rather see a hunt than a fox trapped poisoned or wounded by shot, when caught a fox is killed in no more or less a fashion than the fox kills itself. The problem is there is no substance to the ban its just bad law .
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When I was 14 I observed the ‘sharp end’ of a hunt.
The fox had gone to earth, so two huntsmen widened the entrance with shovels, then sent a pair of terriers down to drag the fox out. When it was near the entrance they pulled the terriers away, stuck a 12-bore down the hole and shot the fox.
Having pulled the dead fox out of the hole, they cut the tail off and threw the body to the hounds so they could rip it to pieces.
They called it sport. You call it countryside management. The majority of people call it bloodlust.
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So the fox was shot dead? that is what the law now states to do, flush with dogs to a waiting gun , what matter is it what you do with the the remains?.I would also add what is the difference with a snare, gas , both are not instant dispatch so the first is the preferred option .
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Well said! It’s disgusting we still have to put up with this backwardness in the 21st century.
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Absolutely spot on-please dont patronise us with the whole countryside way of life, population control yarn. They may as well just admit they enjoy killing wild animals same as the nice “people” who travel to Africa to shoot lions etc. Very sad really.
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have to agree with everything you wrote a vile blood sport maybe legalise banker hunting and you may get a few takers….
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Tall story if you ask me.
1 You wouldn’t have to widen the hole – a terrier is smaller than a fox.
2 The huntsman (there is only one! – not huntsMEN!!) does not do the terrier work. He keeps his hounds away from earth (hole) so they don’t interfere.
2 Shot gun would not be used. A humane killer/pistol is used.
3 Just suppose the terriers did pull the fox to the entrance, once seperated from the fox, the fox would return deep into the earth again – your shot gun story is rather fanciful.
4 Two terriers can not get side by side in the hole to pull the fox back as you describe.
5 Terriers are used to either flush the fox out or to keep it at bay in the hole so the terrier man can dig down.
Perhap when you were 14 it was a difficult time hormone wise and you recollection is effected?
That’s the problem with these anti’s trying to gather eveidence – they don’t know the first thing and the police get fed up with calls to innocent legal hunt gatherings, hence they just will not come out if you call them.
These anti’s need to employ some experts if they want to prove their case – I am available for my usual fee ;o)
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I was there, you were not.
What hunts are (were) *supposed* to do and what this one *did* seem to be two very different things.
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if you are an expert(retired has been)How do you stand on the alliances stance. The most effective way of controlling foxes is to hunt with dogs,(when cross examined about how cruel it is) they then argue that they hardly kill any foxes, most of them get away!!! . I dont think you need to be an “anti” to realise that hunting is barbaric and not required. If a load of kids were chasing a cat, cornering it and then kicking it to death, there would be an outcry. Hiding behind posh outfits and tradition is not acceptable!!!!!
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ooeer… methinks you know a bit too much about this not to have hunted yourself.
And you describe those against foxhunting as ‘antis’. Don’t you realise that you are the antis now because anti-foxhunting is the law!
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A typical response using the language of extremism . Bloodlust is a desire for extreme violence and carnage, often aroused in the heat of battle and leading to the uncontrolled slaughter and death. Hardly appropriate language to describe wealthy country folk enjoying a english tradition.
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How traditional do you want to get? Human sacrifice was once a tradition within these shores. Thankfully we’ve moved on and continue to do so as cruel “traditions” become consigned to the history books.
Face it, Pete; the tide of opinion is strongly against you and your ilk. What you stand for is unneccessary, unpopular and unacceptable. Time for you to move on.
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The Original Jake said “I was there, you were not.”
Well I’ve seen foxes dug and shot, since I was old enough to say “tally-ho” and your description is not consistent and flawed.
I respect your views but doubt your account. Such hysteria does nothing to advance democrtic debate for either side.
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Irrespective of whether my eyewitness account is more accurate than your imagined interpretation of what may or may not have occurred is beside the point and sidestepping the core issues, as you are attempting to do, does even less to advance democratic debate for either side.
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Lucy W, Question> Why do you have to kill foxes???
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John Jones, Answer> Because they breed to excessive levels where they become a nuisance to livestock, small children and game keepers. It is a simple economical necessity because the consumer doesn’t want to pay for this nuisance.
I’d love to set up a fox sanctuary on my land but no-one wants to pay for it – and then I’d have to kill lots of other animals to feed the foxes into their old age.
Reality can be harsh, sadly so many peope don’t see it when they buy their cling film wrapped prepared meat from the super market so any one who spills a little blood is seen as barbaric in the eyes of the niave.
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Here here, fantastic reply and true also….
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I’ve remembered another thing.
Some years ago my father overheard a conversation in a local country pub. Two chaps, one from a well-known Shropshire hunt, were discussing moving foxes from one area to another so the hunt “would have something to go after”.
Is that classified as countryside management?
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Indeed I have been involved with relocting nuisance foxes, but let me explain. Some foxes are caught in live traps and their fate is to be shot inless they can be relocated.
It is the huntsman’s intimte knowledge of where fox populations are low but sustainable and will be tollerated that allows successful relocation.
Put yourself in the foxes paws (or the cage) and ask what you would like?
Ironically the Government’s Burns Report that was subsequently ignored because it disagreed with the majority of uneducated, recognised this symbiotic relationship.
So how would you deal with a live trapped pregnant fox?
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Oh please, Lucy… relocating nuisance foxes? Honestly, you must think everybody was born yesterday. Of course they were doing it for the foxes welfare. It had nothing whatsoever to do with a shortage of foxes as hunt day was approaching.
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I am not a socialist nor left wing in fact i am an out and Out Tory and i live in the country.
I do not support this barbaric “sport” like i do not support The Sports of Bull fighting, Hare Coursing, Badger Baiting etc yet the Blood sports group would have all these and more.. Keep the ban.
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As Oscar Wilde might have said, there’s no justifiable reason for allowing the unspeakable to pursue the uneatable.
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But Oscar Wilde was never hungry and I am not sure if we should take too much notice of a convicted criminal.
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As a well-known novelist, playwright and intellectual, he’s had a lot of notice taken of him down the years. As for his criminal convictions, they were the result of laws that were pretty archaic even at the time. It’s not far off saying we shouldn’t take notice of what Nelson Mandela has said because he was also a convicted criminal.
Anyway, as with a lot of Wilde’s clever lines, the foxhunting one is ironic, yet still completely nails the issue.
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Are you saying we shouldn’t listen to Oscar Wilde because he was gay?
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No. I am saying we shouldn’t listen to Oscar Wilde because me made a very famously stupid remark when defending (and denying) the charge of homosexuality.
When asked if he was attracted to a certain gentleman, he said “Oh no, he’s not my type” sealing his conviction!
Hence not quite the sharp witted individual he is made out to be.
He then went on to say “A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal.”
So I always question someone’s sincerity when they quote Oscar Wilde!
May I leave you with a quote of my own that may well be appropriate to the hunting debate?
“All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.”
Adolf Hitler
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The law isn’t being enforced, so it should be repealed? Noo I don’t think so, it should be **enforced**. The police might not want to offend their toffee-nosed “county set” friends, but animal cruelty is animal cruelty and has to be punished. It’s not some quaint rural ritual, it’s just nasty and cruel.
With all the comments on here you can now write an article saying there are calls for the anti-hunting laws to be enforced as firmly as possible across Shropshire and Mid Wales. Please do so.
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I’ve never known the police to be worried about offending anyone!
Perhap a Freedom of Information Request as to how many Chief Constables hunt might get you closer to the truth?
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no no no
this cruel and unusual punishment is no way to manage a pest control service – do you propose the rat catchers are free to torture too?
not acceptable in the 21stcentury thank you
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Err? Rats don’t eat a bit of poison and gently drift off to rat heaven. They die a long and painful death caused by brain hemmorage. I know because I a fed up of my cat bringing them into the house to play with. Mind you, its only a matter of time before their is a ban on cats. And how about pidgeon racing? Where will it all end?
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But a rat is chased by the terriers? all be it in a small confined area.
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why cant we just hunt dogs? if people like foxes too much i propose we get a small pup say a poodle or a lab and chase them down instead, all the kids could come out on their ponies and watch, it would be great to watch a pet labrador be torn apart on the way back we could check out a bull fight before going to a blood tavern to celebrate with a pint of calfs blood – now that sounds like a good day out
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Foxes do not need to be managed, 60% of them die of the mange which keeps the numbers at an acceptable level. Although their main diet is earthworms they do kill and aet a lot of rats which is highly beneficial.
As someone who has lost hens to a mangy desperate fox I still do not believe they should be hunted and killed for sport.
There have been few if any prosecutions for not clearing up dog mess. Does that means that law should be repealed? No. It is a fact that the police have better things to do.
As horses, cats, birds, and all sorts of wildlife defaecate everywhere all the time so it is not exactly high on the list of seriousness.
Some people are selfish and antisocial and nothing will ever change that.
Your comment Andrew completely misses the point as together with the majority of public opinion, this bill conveys the message that we are, in general, better people than we were in the past.
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I disagree, all dogs should be registered with a sample of their DNA. The next time some excrement is found, a CSO could ‘scoop the poop’, send it to a lab and then issue bits of paper saying ‘don’t do it again’.
This low level crime needs tackling because just as any criminalologist will tell you today’s rapist is tomorrows murder – todays ‘pooper’ is tomorrows ‘fly-tipper’!
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Foxes are a nuisance in the countryside, this much we know, however, I’m led to believe some other creatures are more of a pest – grubs, beetles, fungii etc. Now, when will these so called huntsmen get into full hunts regalia and start pursuing potato beetles. They could train some ladybirds to replace the hounds – they’re already sporting the right colours.
Afterwards they could have the potato beetle stuffed and mounted (and dressed in the uniform of a huntsman, which I believe is the common practice with foxes)
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Just for the record, I live in the country, have done all my life as have my family for generations and I find the thought and sight of grown men (and women) dressing up in fancy uniforms and enjoying (yes, enjoying) chasing a fox to the point of exhaustion and then killing it repungnant in the extreme. It is nothing to do with vermin control or ‘countryside management’ – whatever that is – it’s about bloodlust, has been confined to the dustbin of history and should remain there despite any fatuous and illogical arguments given publicity by the Star.
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Never mind this hobby – ‘our’ government has real things to sort out first – like why we’re funding the banks to make a profit for a few and loss for the majority and why we have to keep throwing OUR TAX MONEY at them everytime they mess up. We need to extracate our country from unfettered market control – the logic of the chase to the bottom in the real world is peoples lives and jobs and savings.
So, do wait a while dear wanna-be fox killers – let the grown-ups sort the country out for you first (after the ConDems fail), then bother people to get your hobby back, I hope you don’t but frankly – now isn’t the time. I’m sure your seeing your savings / investments shrinking?
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I would also point out it is rubbish that hunting was or is an expensive hobby . Shooting , joining a good golf club, some forms of fishing on to motor cross can all out strip the cost of one seasons hunting so this silly argument that its the hobby of the rich is rather out dated.
As for the cost of keeping a horse many members of the working class keep horses .
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Oh yeah, Andrew, when I worked in factories, everyone I knew rode to work on a horse. All us working-class joes had them. Only the other day, I was walking round Brookside… couldn’t move for horses tethered up outside the flats.
And at the weekends, all my factory colleagues, would group together with their horses and go and kill and a fox ‘cos it was cheaper than going to the local and drinking the weekend away. Not a toff to be seen…
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I am aware of a lot of people whos daughters wives, have horses, ponies and work in factories what a stupid narrow minded comment.
Do hunters ride to their work on a horse? another stupid comment.
So the poor old factory worker just spends his time in the pub ? i suppose his wife goes to the bingo too.
Toff? what a stereo typical uneducated view , are all in brookside doleites and on drugs? I doubt it.
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My comments were tongue in cheek… yours are bordering on the ridiculous. You’re insane if you truly believe that fox-hunting is anything other than the preserve of the upper-classes. A few sporadic instances of working class people indulging in the “sport” doesn’t change that.
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Your mistaken argument for inhumane and savage behaviour continues to pollute our society. It is time for the government to ban these heartless fools on horseback for good. If you have a fox problem then deal with it humanely. As Vulpes vulpes is in fact a dog, perhaps we should also consider your hounds and terriers vermin? However, it is not the fault of the animals, only the evil and cruel savages that breed one dog to kill another for their own obnoxious excitement and bloodlust.
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Why ban these heartless fools on horse back? what are they doing wrong???? clearly nothing since the ban came in to effect .
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At least you now agree they are fools. What are they doing wrong other than acting like savages? Well for one they cannot even stand up and admit to their evil escapades without lying – simply do not have the decency or backbone to stand-up and be counted. They do however have the ability to bully and harass individuals who obtain evidence of their law-breaking activities, stealing and destroying cameras and footage. The term fools was used purely to describe the way in which they ride their mounts across the public highway; savages and perjurers would perhaps be a more fitting term for those whom hunt dogs with dogs.
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I know Andrew won’t thank me for rallying to his side, but he’s right. Hunting really is the poor man’s sport. The ‘toffs’ are balsting birds out of the air at a rate of £35 per bird!! I know of miners who wore red jackets. I mean ones at the pit face – not sitting on the board!
The last time I went hunting they were a really down to earth bunch meeting at a pub. No toffey nosed airs and graces, just simple honest folk. The Port was very expensive by the glass for us working class types, so we we decided it would be better value to buy a bottle each.
I can’t recall if any foxes were slaugtered, but most of the hunters were!
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over my dead body
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i would like to establish a sport of hanging monkies… its tradition in hartlepoole they once did it. we have hundreds of chimps in zoos and such so lets just noose them up and hang them off every lamp post
it could be such a good spectator sport we could sell tickets to help pay off the national debt
BRING BACK MONKEY HANGING NOW!!!!!
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#26
[As for the cost of keeping a horse many members of the working class keep horses .]
Wot you mean poor people keep horses?
You mean people like travellers perhaps?
Who exactly is working class Andrew?
Are you suggesting that anyone today indulging in this outdated and immoral pastime does not need to work for a living.
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My point was aimed at the comment “only rich have horses etc” nobody chases foxes anymore so it is not an issue.
Anybody in average paid employment can easily afford a horse and keep one it all boils down to what you choose to spend your money on .I have mentioned other hobbies which cost more on a yearly basis , i have never said working class are poor .
What is working class to me ? well in my eyes we have the wealthy that is people with large amounts of property and large amounts of financial wealth .
The working class in my eyes are anyone in employment and reliant on an employer paying them a wage in order for them to pay a mortgae and bills etc
And the poor ie benefit dependent , the middle class were just created to please those who aspire to be wealthy but never ACTUALLY achieve that status .
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“The working class in my eyes are anyone in employment and reliant on an employer paying them a wage in order for them to pay a mortgae and bills etc”
That definition of “working class” covers almost anyone who has a job. In your eyes, would a bank manager or a head-teacher for example, be working class? If so, then I concede that yes indeed, very many working class people own horses.
Your attempt to back up your argument by re-classifying the middle-classes as “working class but with aspirations” is laughable.
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Yes i do see teachers,bank managers ETC as working class take away the salary and they are??in your eyes they get made redundant and they revert to working class do they? oh how shallow the middle class sector are.
Your view that it is middle class who own horses is rather amazing and very ill informed .
My view, working classes have aspirations to do well and make money ,the middle classes you speak of continually look for acceptance by the upper classes what they do which they never get , however what they do get is ridicule as they do but try.
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Personally, I agree that the definitions between the classes are fluid at best, and also agree that a large section of the middle class want to be something they’re not.
But I still challenge the notion that people who would typically be classed as working class are represented in any significant way at hunt-meets or their local stables.
Interesting discussion although at the end of the day, it makes no difference in my mind what class a person belongs to; a desire to watch an animal get torn to pieces is abhorrent and totally at odds with a society which strives to promote animal welfare.
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I think the responses here are pretty indicative of general opinion… for Shropshire. Further afield in the UK there is even less support for this barbaric “sport”
So could the Shropshire Star run a story along the lines of “Fox hunting still considered wrong by the majority of Britons”?
Or has any semblence of impartiality finally evaporated in our local paper?
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A valid request for the Editor?
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I think in all honesty the vast majority of the uk public do not give any of it a second thought, unless some one or group brings it to their attention and oh yes dont like that.
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Andrew, I see that you now speak with authority about the views from the vast majority of the British public. I think not – just more fantasist opinion.
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So true. The majority don’t know the first thing about hunting, as proved by this thread, but why let the facts get in the way of a good story !
Some people who hunt are well off, the vast majority get by. There are as many people who follow the hunt on foot or by car as follow on horseback.
The main purpose of hunting with hounds was to control fox numbers (not eradicate) and to do so in a manner that ensured that the remaining population was fit and healthy. The fox has no natural predators in this country anymore, so it is up to man to ensure that the numbers are maintained at sustainable levels.
Conservation is about balance, this means that some animals have to be culled to enable others to survive.
Watching hounds work and follow a fox is no different to going on safari and watching lions stalk their prey. There is no element of bloodlust from those who hunt, the thrill is in the working of the hounds and for those on horseback the bonus is the opportunity to ride across countryside that would normally be closed to them.
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These are amongst the very few sensible, considered words i have read on this thread so far.
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The most ridiculous for me.
Foxhunting has no place in our society.
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If the thrill is in the working of the hounds and getting to ride across land they wouldn’t otherwise go, then why is drag-hunting (is that the correct term?) not an acceptable alternative?
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This is very much the case, if you asked a cross section of the public what issues they would like their local politician to campaign on i am sure that most would say, healthcare, policing, other emergency services and education. Any opinion they have, or indeed have yet to formulate, on fox hunting would be fairly low on their political radar.
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Honesty and fox hunters. Not a combination of words this particular British person would use. Try savage and purjurers.
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There are two posters here speaking total rubbish. Lucy W says:
[This low level crime needs tackling because just as any criminalologist will tell you today’s rapist is tomorrows murder – todays ‘pooper’ is tomorrows ‘fly-tipper’!]
I find the country folk or ex-country dwellers in Shrewsbury take the view their dogs do not have to go out on leads nevermind pick up the poop. Whereas in my locality there are many many dog walkers who also pick up litter when street walking their dogs.
I’ve yet to see a horse rider pick up their animals droppings though I suppose they would have to employ someone working class to do that!
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Oh dear, yet another poster falls straight into the trap of percieving the hunting fraternity as upper class, what surprises me is that people like you who have all manner of stastical information available to them still sprout the same ill informed rhetoric, can you actually be bothered to gather the facts together before you wade into a debate or are you content to post any old nonsense, i think we know the answer to that question.
The hunting act which currently allows the hunting of both Rats and Rabbits with Dogs but not Foxes clearly discriminates against certain quarry species and as such puts the value of one animals live over and above that of another. If you really think that hunting with dogs is cruel then why discriminate, well the labour government of the time realised that most of the ratting and rabbiting was done by stereotypical working class voters, not all you understand and as such made exemptions to try and protect their votes at the next election. If ever proof was needed that percieved class issues were behind the hunting act, and not animal welfare, then it is this exemption
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That’s because horses AND dogs are allowed to fould in the road – its just the pavement they are not allowed to poop on. As horses shouldn’t be on the pavement generally, thats why they poop in the road.
Have you not seen a blind dog poop in the gutter? Or do you expect a blind person to grope around and pick it up? Honestly *tut*
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Horses are on the road ,horse do da is not dog do da , eve seems to have a low esteem issue.
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Quite right, my mum lived in London in the Blitz and if the milkman’s horse deficated outside their house they would rush out for it to put on the garden to grow food that was in shortage.
If Eva ever lives through a Blitz she may see a horse poo in a different light!
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If fox hunting was effective the animal would now be extinct.
It is not extinct so either fox hunting is not effective, or there is no intent to permanently eradicate the fox from UK.
If not effective a more efficient means of vermin control needs to be introduced that will bring about the extinction of the fox.
Or, is the simple truth, people just enjoy blood sports and like to see animals killed? So in the same way game birds are bred for the gun, foxes are managed for sport?
Seems to me that those who are opposed do so on moral grounds, animal welfare etc. whilst those that support hide their blood lust behind dubious “countryside management and tradition”.
May advance the argument if there was some honesty on the part of contributors.
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Hardly the case, Fox hunting was never intended as an activity to eradicate the Fox just to control its numbers by removing the slowest and possibly ill Foxes who then predate on livestock if not culled.
To this end Fox hunting with dogs is a very effective form of pest control, how many mangy Foxes do you see nowadays compared with the Fox populations of the pre-ban era.
How many Foxes in recent times are now coming into urban environments in search of easy food because they are too ill or slow to hunt live quarry, urban Foxes are on the increase.
A sick Fox will not outrun a Hound but a healthy one will, in all probability.
This means that even in this day and age there is little by way of improvement in hunting with dogs as a method of pest control as far as this species are concerned.
How about shooting them ?, well could you tell a fit fox from one with problems just by looking at them from a rifle scope ?, i know many marksmen who will tell you a foxes true condition can only really be assessed by a cross country chase.
Hunting with dogs is the best method of controling numbers and leaving a healthy fox population, indeed prior to mans intervention sick foxes would have been taken by predators in exactly this manner and by allowing sick foxes to prosper we are undoing thousands of years worth of evolution
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It was a pointless, politically motivated law that was a shameful waste of Parliamentary time. It should never have been enacted simply because it was obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that it was unenforcable, but the screamers and shouters got what they wanted. It doesn’t work, it should be repealed for that reason. End of story.
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couldn’t agree more
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It’s already been pointed out on here that the fact a law proves to be unenforcable doesn’t mean that the law lacks validity. Plenty of crimes go unsolved… it doesn’t mean that the laws against those crimes should be taken off the books.
There does appear to be a number of inconsistencies and non-sensical aspects of the hunting laws which could do with clarifying/amending though. The only argument I can see for repealing the law is that it appears to have muddied the waters rather than providing the straight-forward ban or a mandate to continue which was hoped for by either side of the debate when the law was first being drawn up.
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Half a brain cell breeds “shamefull” savage blinkered thought process and actions. No doult the dog killers where out burning witches last night; after all it is tradition from the same age.
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never never never no no no
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You can argue as much as you like over the semantics – foxhunting should never again become legal in this country. The majority don’t want it.
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More nonsense i’m afraid.
Independant research has shown that the vast majority of people in the UK are not against Fox Hunting, please do some research before you state that the majority dont want to see fox hunting taking place as that’s just not true
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Remember those signs claiming 58% were for fox hunting, they were all over the place. They had to be taken down as it was a false claim. Nearly everyone on this thread is against fox hunting, those for it (you and Lucy mainly) are making up so called facts and insulting people.
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You really have to be sick to find chasing a fox, then watching it ripped apart by dogs fun. We don’t want it back, we’ve moved on from traditional and cruel blood sports, let’s not go back.
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I think you will find that the first dog on the fox kills it by breaking its neck, the remaining dogs are tearing a dead body to pieces, have you never cut up part of a dead animal ?, if you have never eaten steak, chicken, pork etc, and cut it up on your plate then your argument may bear some validity otherwise not.
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David, you are quite right. I have close up video footage of a hound killing a fox in literally less than a second with a swift shake of the neck.
Whilst being brought up in the countryside I used to believe that this somewhat romantic version of events, but it is absolutely true.
The first hound usually just stands over his kill and ripping up only takes place when a second hound turns up.
I respect peoples views on the facts, but can not respect people’s views on fiction.
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It is refreshing to read a considered and logical post on this thread, based more on fact than on second hand misinformation taken from people with their own agenda for distorting the truth.
The fact of the matter is that whenever a dog tackles something that it regards as a prey species then it will instinctivly go for the neck as this is the quickest and most efficient means of ensuring a kill and therefore a meal for an animal thats ancestors had to hunt in this manner to survive.
I have seen dogs which have spent their entire lives as family pets take and kill rabbits in such a manner, it is instinctive to them.
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Chasing and terrifying an animal for fun is pretty low, even if it’s killed quickly. I very much doubt it is a quick end though, you’re saying that because you want your blood sport back.
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[It was a pointless, politically motivated law that was a shameful waste of Parliamentary time.]
Quite the opposite. It is a further move towards a civilised and equal society.
The traditions of cock fighting, badger and bear baiting have been outlawed over time.
Indeed the questionable entertainment of public hanging of citizens for serious crimes has only been lost in relatively recent time.
Lizzie says…
[The main purpose of hunting with hounds was to control fox numbers (not eradicate) and to do so in a manner that ensured that the remaining population was fit and healthy. The fox has no natural predators in this country anymore, so it is up to man to ensure that the numbers are maintained at sustainable levels.]
This is some sort of laughable pro hunting mantra not based on any kind of facts whatsoever.
[Conservation is about balance, this means that some animals have to be culled to enable others to survive]
True to a degree but not at all necessary in the case of the fox, nor is it necessary for it to be a sport for those who appear to like their competitive streak to be satiated by chasing and killing a small wild animal.
As Lucy stated …
just as any criminalologist will tell you today’s rapist is tomorrows murder –
Why stop at killing a mere fox?
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Actually Eva you will find that cock-fighting is quite prevelant in certain communities.
Normally cock chicks are an unwanted by-product of breeding. However my Uncle has access to a endless supply of unwanted Game HEN chicks. (‘Game’ is the breed favoured for cock-fighting). It doesn’t take an Einstein to work out whats going on here.
However for some reason, no one will speak out against certain communities who persue their cultural traditions yet the rural community are fair game. (no pun intended)
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Can’t believe anyone would want to chase an animal around the countryside till it was exhausted, then watch it ripped apart by dogs. When ever these hunters and their watchers turn up they cause chaos, 4×4′s parked everywhere so you can’t use the road properly, no consideration for everyone else or the people who live there.
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I think you will find that the hunting fraternity carry out all manner of land maintainance and habitat restoration work throughout the year, they are in the countryside 24/7 looking after the land for the benefit of all, whereas the anti’s only turn up during the hunting season to cause trouble and spout their nonsense.
Where are they during the close season ?, probably tucked up in urbansville.
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No. You will find that during closed season they are camped out at St Pauls or violently defending illegal caravan sites inbetween signing on.
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Or indeed selling Socalist Worker newspapers, inspite of the fact that non of them have actually done a days work in their shallow mindless lives.
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All you have is insults, ridiculous ones too. You can’t get your own way so you insult those stopping you. My whole family are against fox hunting, on my mothers side the same farm has been in their family for over a hundred years. None of them have ever signed on.
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You are seriously having a laugh, the lanes around hadnell were left in a right mess, mud everywhere after the hunt supporters parked all up the hedge rows. Simple fact is you have no argument, it is weird and sick to CHASE an animal the way you do. Then to find pleasure in it being killed by your dogs is even worse. Stop trying to make out that everyone who is anti fox hunting lives in a town or city, we live everywhere and there are plenty of us in the countryside. Plenty of us antis who farm, live and love the countryside.
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You should report it to the police. Obstructing the Highway is a criminal offence, I believe the current fine is a maximum of £1000 (but don’t quote me). The police would love it because its a crime reported and a crime solved making their detection figures look good with the minimum of effort.
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[leaving a healthy fox population, indeed prior to mans intervention sick foxes would have been taken by predators in exactly this manner and by allowing sick foxes to prosper we are undoing thousands of years worth of evolution]
Give me strength, is there ever going to be an end to this twaddle?
BTW Lucy my granny scooped up some horse poo and took it on the bus with her to put on her roses!
There were still quite a few working horses around when I was young. Roads used to be pretty dirty places but were still available for children to play on unlike today.
[Horses are on the road ,horse do da is not dog do da , eve seems to have a low esteem issue.]
I haven’t a self esteem issue Andrew but then I am not talking like a child.
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So your one and only retort to my argument is to call it twaddle without offering up anything by way of a counter argument to support this opinion, wow how mature,grow up.
Culling sick foxes helps to maintain a healthy fox population this is an established fact, without this control the weaker foxes would breed with the healthy ones and the fox population would suffer as a whole, it is no coincidence that healthy fox populations were usually found in areas which saw frequent hunting activity. As i said foxes would have been predated on in this manner in the past when they would have formed a prey species for wolves and the like. If you have a valid counter argument which is fact based then please feel free to respond, otherwise don’t bother as you will just make yourself look very foolish (again)
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Its just a bit of poo – get over it or at least step over it!
However, if you can’t, I am more than willing to appear on Jeremy Kyle with you.
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There once was a pony called Pit,
Who worked down the mine quite a bit,
But he’s never complain,
When the weekend came,
‘Cos down the street he’d go for a walk.
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It really does seem that most in Shropshire are against fox hunting and wouldn’t want to see it back. I certainly don’t agree with it, I’m not a townie or claiming dole, I live in the countryside and always have. I just think it’s cruel. We’ve moved on let’s not go back.
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