Shropshire teachers and workers to join pensions revolt
Monday 20th June 2011, 1:55PM BST.
THOUSANDS OF Shropshire teachers and public-sector workers are expected to stage a massive protest over Government moves to reform pensions.
Picket lines are expected at schools, colleges and civil service workplaces as part of a national strike on Thursday next week.
Rallies will be held in Shrewsbury and Telford and there will also be a march as part of a protest over the reforms to public-sector pensions.
Members of the University and College Union, the National Union of Teachers and the Association of Teachers and Lecturers will be joined by members of the Public and Commercial Services Union in the action.
But today Treasury Chief Secretary Danny Alexander insisted ministers would not back down over the proposed reforms.
He made it clear that while the Government was prepared to discuss the detailed implementation of the proposals, it was sticking to the broad principles which will see millions of workers having to pay more and work for longer.
Shadow chancellor Ed Balls urged the unions not to fall into the Government’s “trap”, accusing ministers of engineering a confrontation so that they could blame the unions for the failing economy.
Catherine Coggins, a PCS representative from Telford, said: “The Government’s proposals are to increase workers’ pension contributions, raise the retirement age and convert the amount received to average rather than final salary level.
“This will mean people work longer and pay more for a smaller pension which won’t begin until well above the current pension age.”
Bob Hill, a lecturer and UCU representative at Shrewsbury College, said: “Many people have worked for years for their pensions and are set to see the quality of life during their old age and retirement undermined by these proposals.”
Picket lines are expected across Shropshire including at HMRC Telford and Copthorne Barracks in Shrewsbury. A rally will take place at the Unison Club at Shirehall, Shrewsbury, from 12.30pm until 1.45pm. And there will be a march at noon from MoD Donnington to Cordingley Hall, in Wellington Road, Donnington.
By Dave Morris
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They all need a good dose of the private sector and some reality! Let’s hope it rains next Thursday!
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Brilliant, sounds good. So company cars, large bonuses, greater salaries, paid overtime and other corporate benefits? Fantastic, I hope they provide umberellas too!
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Don’t give us all that hard done by baloney. All those benefits you mentioned are in the public sector and more on top. Some of the spurious payments the police, nurses and others get are very dubious. How they were ever sanctioned in the first place is beyond belief. Too much pandering by the previous government I would say.
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What an absolute load of rubbish!
Our nurses work longer hours than nurses in any other country in Europe, and their wages are substantially less in comparison – please check your facts before posting comments.
What are these ‘spurious payments’ you are on about anyway? Night rate for nurses? it doesn’t exist – but it should!
Before you jump to these ignorant conclusions about public sector workers, you should think for a second about whether the people who empty your bins, teach your children, treat your illnesses, save your life if you ever have the misfortune to suffer a housefire, keep your roads in useable condition, clear litter from your streets and all the others who provide your public services deserve a pension that is sufficient to provide for them in their old age.
If you are jealous of the working conditions, pay and pensions of public sector workers, then you should bear in mind that all of the ‘benefits’ they enjoy have been fought for by the workforce, to improve their standards of living. If you are unhappy with your own pension, then stop moaning and join a trade union. If there isn’t one already in your workplace then pull your finger out and organise one. This is what working people have done for decades to ensure that they are not driven to the bottom through having their wages, working conditions and pensions cut, and if you feel that, as a private sector worker, you are ‘hard done by’, then fight for better for yourself rather than stand on the sidelines and criticise those who have enough of a spine to stand up and fight.
These workers wouldn’t come out with the same slurs about you and your colleagues if you were to show some backbone and fight for your own improvements – they would support you every step of the way. This government is setting up a fight betweenthe millionaires who control our economy and the workers who produce everything that they profit from – make up your mind which side you are on and stop babbling on about someone’s pension being £5 a week more than yours as though its an excuse not to get involved
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I suppose they look on it as an extra day on top of their 6 week summer holidays being neither here nor there, I thought they were there to set the children an example…muppets
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I agree with the previous comments. The country (ie. taxpayers) cannot afford the advantageous pension deals available to public sector employees. Private sector employees generally have far less attractive schemes.
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Stu,
There are still many private sector employers who provide good quality final salary pension schemes. Those that have closed their schemes have generally done so because they deliberately underfunded them when the boome times were here a few years ago.
Why are you, as presumably a working person, so keen to force down the salaries and benefits of other workers? Shoudn’t you be doing as they are doing, and standing up to the greed of employers?
As for the ‘can’t afford it’ argument, it simply doesn’t hold water. The cost of public service pensions is due to reduce anyway, due to changes made an agreed a couple of years ago. The average public sector pension is just £7,000 per annum – hardly a gold-plated fortune is it?
We have an annual tax shortfall of £120bn in this country, caused entirely by wealthy individuals and corporations using loopholes to avoid paying tax on their income – shouldn’t the gov’t be closing those loopholes before attacking relatively low-paid people?
Shouldn’t the rich pay the same proportion of their income in tax as the rest of us?
You may like subsidising the rich – but I don’t. And I’m in the private sector.
Good luck to the strikers – at least some workers are prepared to stand up for themselves, rather than adopt the cap-doffing forelock-tugging attitude shown by too many of the contributors to these pages.
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The jaded voice of the Trotskys, this class war nonsense is very nostalgic but equally tiresome. Once again the left bankrupt the country and when the gov try to put it right the left rear their heads to drag it back down again.
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Fully agree with you, Flag.
Peter is usually seen in Che Guevara t-shirt and beret urging brothers and sisters to join the Sundorne Popular Front and rise up to oust our masters- outside barclays every lunch time.
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Andy,
Sorry to spoil your fantasy image. I’ve never owned a Che T-shirt, never worn a hat of any sort, and have held a managerial position in a large private sector company for many years. I’ve also never been a member of any political party or faction.
As you and Iron Cross know well, the current debt level was caused directly by the greed and risk-taking of wealthy bankers and others amongst the wealthiest in our country. Despite all the propaganda of the Tories and their friends in the tabloid media, this is very far from the worst debt crisis we’ve ever had when looked at in terms of GDP. Unlike you or others on the right wing of politics, I can point to facts to prove this.
I cannot understand why people like you are so keen to force down the pay of ordinary people – private and public sector, whilst at the same time supporting the continued subsidy of taxes for the wealthy.
Take the example of Philip Green, (effectively) owner of Top Shop. The company paid no tax on its income last year, as he had put this company in his non-domiciled wife’s name for the purpose of tax avoidance. Why are you content that he did that?
Though I doubt you’d have the backbone to do so, next time you are unfortunate enough to need any of our publice services, be it the police, our hospitals or any of the other many vital services that we all take for granted, try referring directly to those individuals as the ‘workshy, militant spongers’ you choose – see how far it gets you.
On second thoughts, they’d probably treat you in the same even-handed and professional way they typically treat everyone.
You really should be ashamed of yourself for such ignorant, disgusting comments.
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Grow up peter, not eveyone thinks the same as we found in Germany and Russia. Your comments always show in your mind at least that there is only one way to think… and that’s peters, very sad. By all means comment but don’t thrash out half a page upset that someone doesn’t agree with you.
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‘don’t thrash out half a page upset that someone doesn’t agree with you.’
If you’d actually read this post, Iron Flag, you’d have found that it replies to certain insinuations made against its author and contains what I take to be verifiable facts (re Topshop), an opinion accepted by an overwhelming majority (the causes of the crisis) and some well-reasoned arguments.
They’re arguments that disagree with yours, sure, but then I’ve looked for places in this debate where you’ve presented facts or resaonable arguments and they’re pretty thin on the ground. There’s your tired ’5 million jobs to migrants’ line, which you’ve been asked to prove and haven’t, and various ravings about Trotsky, ‘class-war nonsense’ and cloth caps.
I accept two things you have said or implied ;
1. Nazi references are out of line. No arguments there, but perhaps lazy assumptions about Che Guevara T-shirts are also out of line(?)
2. There are opinions other than the left-wing one.
As for No2, yes there are. Woody and Andrew Finch (for example) have said respectable things (though I disagree with them) for their side of the argument. Good, because this is a democratic forum, free speech and all that. Something you and Andy ought to remember when you start trying to shout loudest and denigrate people.
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“The average public sector pension is just £7,000 per annum – hardly a gold-plated fortune is it?”
£7000pa would cost £200,000 for a private sector employee. How many people can save that much ?
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That is exactly the point. they retire at say 55 and we pay them as though they were working for 30-40 years…
so they take out far more than they ever put in.
I have the day off to look after mine on Thursday and I am tempted to go down to any picket line and tell them where they can shove their demands if I get the chance.
Government should just start making examples of them… one school, all fired, plenty of people would take the job on and be happy with the new pension offer.
And dont give me that, oh they’re all so well trained: rubbish. most got thirds in impossible to fail degrees and then they are cushioned from any responsibility, how many teachers actually get sacked for poor performance?
Oh, and they are there for the kids, setting such a good example, bleat, bleat bleat. Well if you are all so good at setting examples to those you teach and are doing such a good job of it how come hundreds of thousands of kids leave school not knowing how to read or write with their only aspiration being to have as many kids as it takes to ensure they can afford fags and booze.
Sack a few thousand of the workshy, militant spongers and see the rest go back to work with their tails firmly between their legs.
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“That is exactly the point. they retire at say 55 and we pay them as though they were working for 30-40 years” – Andy
If you started working at the age of 20 in the public sector and retire at 55 (which is usually 60) then they have worked for 35 years
Did you do one of those ‘hard to fail degrees’ and get a third then? ;)
If you ever end up in hospital please tell the nurses that they receive ‘spurious payments’ when they are just finishing a twelve hour shift.
Don’t pigeon hole all teachers in this way. I am at work before 8 in the morning, I work all day and go out of my way to try to help every child and leave work at 5 at night and do work in the evenings where necessary. Yes we have longer than normal holidays but please go and spend time in a school and see how much work is put in before you shout off about it. I have worked in the private sector and that in some ways was a far easier job to be doing. I assume if you have children you read to them every night and nurture that enjoyment? If you are out somewhere you try to educate them? Perhaps the ‘hundreds and thousands’ of children (????) that you claim exist every year don’t have those opportunities in life and hopefully by attending school they will gain some of those ideals.
The strikes are about pensions – these are major changes and come only a few years after major changes had already occurred. A teacher is often ‘worn out’ by the age of 60 and becomes less effective, so why make them work to 68? Would you want pupils taught by someone that old? I can appreciate paying more money but as the police and fire services are keeping the lower limit as they become less effective why souldn’t it apply to teachers?
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Matt,
learn how to add up… I can guarantee there are NO teachers working in the public sector who managed to pass a full degree and PGCE by the time they are 20.
Then factor in they have put in say 30-35% of their wages, (in tax, NI and pension contributions) for the say, 30-33 years of their working life.
But when they draw their pension they are drawing more than 30% of their average life salary aren’t they?
So you are a teacher eh? Let’s hope not teaching any serious subjects like maths, sciences, economics, history or even general education to under 11′s with such utter incompetence.
My guess? Media studies.
And for the record engineering masters for me – I had to learn maths, unlike yourself.
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Perhaps the previous three commentators need to experience some public sector reality. Overtime is regular and unpaid, pay has been frozen for the last few years, we’re facing pay cuts and redundancies, we all ready contribute substantially to our pension funds which are not ‘gold plated’ as the myths perpetuate. Maybe you would like to undertake four plus years of training, repay the student loans, work during your evenings and ‘holidays’ and face a deduction in your salary and pensions.
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It is called life Ali,these things happen and yep in private and public sector so you can Sabre rattle then you need to move on.We all have choices some peoples are to be limited could be worse ie made redundant take you pick redundant or a pay cut?.
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Indeed it “is life” Andrew. You’ll be pleased to know that
I’ve already been made redundant from my education post. So that will save a bit of tax payers money for you! On the other hand maybe I can claim some unemployment benefits instead (at the cost of the tax payer of course!)
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Indeed you can Ali, however we do have many pt/temp jobs out there you may wish to take advantage of instead of heading for the benefits road.
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Thank you for your advice Andrew! No need to worry about claiming benefits. With my ‘public sector’ skills and experience I’ve experienced no difficulty securing alternative employment.
As you appear to have an opinion on anything and everything I’ll leave you to have the final word. My commentary is over!
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I can tell andrew finch doesn’t work for a living!
‘taking the benefits road’? happen he’s taking the mick!
temporary jobs indeed!
Sounds like he’s just another silver spooned brat thinking he’s clever for attacking those who are trying to defend the rights they have fought for at work. Why are there so many people commenting as though they work for a living when their attitude shows that they clearly have no experience of the realities of working in either the public and private sector? to Andy, Andrew Finch, Iron Tory etc, go out and get a job beofre you criticise those who work for a living
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Poor Ali, the violins just do not cut it on this sob story. I have experience of the public sector and budgets etc. Amazing how the unions ignored ‘ the good of the workers ‘ whilst labour was giving away 5 million jobs to migrants. I hope some public sector workers will cross the pickets and do the job they are paid for.
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‘whilst labour was giving away 5 million jobs to migrants’
More neo-Nazi nonsense from Iron Cross.
Where are the facts please? Where did Labour or anyone else ‘give away 5 million jobs to migrants?’
Do you consider that the many British people who work abroad have been ‘given’ jobs by foreign countries?
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You need to be very carefull with your nasty name calling peter. If you cannot comment without calling people ‘ Nazi ‘ then I feel very sorry for you. I’m not surprised though as those like yourself from the hard left are only capable iof calling people names insted of admitting their support for wicked ideology and governments who betray their own people. I do not stoop tk calling you a supporter of murderous communist regimes or supporter of Islamic terrorist murderers so I’d seriously engage your brain when you liken someone to a vile Nazi.
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Still no facts then?
Instead we see your regular jibes at people who simply have a different nationality to you (and in fact your concerns seem more to be about those of a different colour skin, or religion to you).
You have previously indicated sympathies with the vile BNP – a so-called political party with clear historical antecendents back via the NF to the BUF, who were themselves Nazi sympathisers. The BNP also has proven links to white supremacists in the US and elsewhere, and a number of their more significant figures have been convicted of race hate crimes involving anti-Semitism. I think the term ‘Neo Nazi’ is an entirely appropriate one to apply to such views.
Whichever way you look at the facts of the current situation, the poor, the immigrants, public services are not to blame. The blame lies with the greed of the rich – and we need policies to temper that greed before anyone can say we are all in this together.
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Iron flag:
get a job you aren’t fooling anybody!
I’d rather know someone from a different country who had the intelligence to realise that working people should be able to retire without starving to death, than know someone like you who needs to actually experience reality. Where are these 5 million ‘migrants’? Find me 100,000 and i’ll eat my words – better still, stop being so uptight (it’s bad for your health and it really puts women off)
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No one forces anyone to work in the public sector Ali
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I find it impossible to understand what makes public sector workers think that they are entitled to be treated preferentially to those in the private sector. We have had pay freezes, redundancies and I don’t have a pension AT ALL – but still realise that, in the current economic climate, we all have to make cuts and tighten our belts. The Labour government spent an absolute fortune growing the public sector, in an effort to secure votes – why should these employees then be above the ensuing stringencies? I believe there is an endemic sense of entitlement within the public sector. The bin men are on strike in Birmingham today -this following the ‘Industrial Action’ we experienced in the winter – frankly, I would like to see them sacked – there are more than ample candidates to replace them. They are on infinitely more beneficial terms than I am.
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NUT will be Cameron’s miners long road ahead but hey if it loosens the grip of this and the other Jurassic unions so be it.
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Cant see the teachers putting up a fight like the miners :)
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I agree with comments above – the county (tax payers) cannot afford these pension deals, the kids suffer their education away from school while we’re all held to ransom.
In the real world us in the private sector do not or cannot get pensions like this and have no chance of retiring early, lucky if we can afford to retire at 66 or 67.
As a freelance local broadcaster, I don’t get a company pension and have to contact out my own private one and for sure unless I win the lottery, it won’t match that of the public sector.
We all have to work hard to earn our wages and pensions and unfortunately the public sector needs to just stop being so greedy.
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You’re clearly not one of the leftie luvvies on BBC Radio Shropshire….
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Well said Eric!
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I have worked in both the private and public sector and yes, there are workers and shirkers in both.
More recently my work has brought me into contact with the teaching profession, and I have to say that the majority of teachers I have met deserve the greatest respect, they start work well before the pupils get to school, they are on duty all day and their breaks/lunches are given up or interrupted by pupils work or queries.
They often have to attend evening school events in their own time and when they eventually do get home they mark pupils homework.
But it doesn’t end there they then have to prepare classes for the next day, the next week and through the holidays for the next term,
and with a budget that would be laughed at in the private sector.
Not only do they teach our children but they nurture and help form them into citizens.
If anyone thinks teaching is easy I would challenge them to face, unprepared, a class of year 10s…they would eat you alive.
The majority of teachers I have met deserve medals and to retire early if they so wish.
I can’t imagine the internal struggle and challenge that a teacher must go through to consider giving up a child to secure the rights of their profession.
You have my support whatever you choose to do on the day of action and may your retirement be early, restful, long and financial comfortable for you deserve it.
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Malcolm,
I would hope teachers chose this profession because they want to make a difference and not just for the renumeration and early pension.
The career is a personal choice, but that doesn’t mean they are immune from the financial constraints of the country, or people in other professions.
Eutopia doesn’t exist and sycophancy is not helpful.
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“Eutopia doesn’t exist”
…but Utopia does…
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If you look in the dictionary I think you will find it does!
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@ Woody
….not in my dictionary (Collins English) – but perhaps you’re using a dikshunerry?
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Grow up!!
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For the record:
The English homophone eutopia, derived from the Greek εὖ (“good” or “well”) and τόπος (“place”), signifies a double meaning: “good place” and “no place”.
Hope this clarifies it for you?
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Appears in mine, OED.
Eutopia, n.
Pronunciation: /juːˈtəʊpɪə/
A region of ideal happiness or good order.
A homophone of Utopia, if you will.
Check me, I could be a teacher; only I don’t moan as much and I have no overwhelming sense of importance.
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Class!
Get in there! :)
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Funny that the public sector are asking us to support them when every day the teachers take on strike is a day’s pay lost for a working couple…
Doubt that they would like us to start randomly docking them a days pay whenever it suited us…
And then they show the hypocrisy of saying they are there for our kids… unless of course it gets in the way of their grubbing for handouts, as if they dont already have a cushy number…
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Strikes have no place in today’s modern society, they are paramount to blackmail. Whatever happened to serious conciliation instead of threats of disruption because people don’t like change? Maybe if the civil service got rid of all the non-jobs and fat cats the general public may be a little sympathetic.
Plus, what about the general public who will have the inconvenience of this proposed strike and the childrens education?
Union members want to look at their leaders, they push to enhance their own standing knowing full well all their rhetoric is wasted because change will happen.
Selfish. Just count your lucky stars that you have a job at all!
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totally agree mate these teachers should be banned from striking in my opinion
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‘Maybe if the civil service got rid of all the non-jobs and fat cats the general public may be a little sympathetic. Plus, what about the general public who will have the inconvenience of this proposed strike and the childrens education?’
A bit self-contradictory there Woody, don’t you think? If these civil service jobs are, as you claim, ‘non-jobs’, there won’t be any ‘inconvenience’ if those people go out on strike, will there?
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To clarify for James, who thinks being pedantic is clever.
The general public I refer to are those in the private sector, whose numbers outweigh the public sector “non-jobs”. Hence these people will be inconvenienced when having to take time off work to look after their children who should be in education.
Look at the bigger picture and remove those smart alec blinkers!
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How exactly does this clarify things Woody, and how was James being pedantic?
Why don’t you just accept that you contradicted yourself in your post #9?
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Semantics Rob, pure semantics… I knew what I was trying to get across. I guess it’s all down to interpretation. Maybe a little contradictory, but the point was made or are you ignoring that?
Or are you one of those type of people who has to nitpick?
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Are we able to ‘fine’ the teachers for taking an unauthorised day off? That’s what would happen to us parents if we took our children out of school.
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All the parents who have to take a day off or find alternative child care should sue the Unions for loss of wages.
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Can someone please clarify exactly why we cant do that?
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It strikes me that the people who are condemming the people who are going to strike are the one’s who work allyday and worry about who will babysit their kids if the teachers strike.As for the comment labour giving 5 million jobs to migrant workers i worked for a large food company in telford that paid well and the locals did not want the work. They employed migrant workers [poles, Afgans, Iraqi's etc]and they work their buts off.So lay off the strikers and lets hope they bring down Cameron and co and give the workers what they deserve.
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It’s cloth caps and whippets time again at the coal face then eh! Least we know it’s ok with labour supporters that 5 million migrants were given the ‘ new jobs ‘ created by labour that finally bankrupt the uk. After all why indeed would the locals want the jobs when labour made it so attractive to sign on and grab benefits. Sums the left up.
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You keep trotting out this statistic about 5 million migrant workers having jobs created for them under the last government, care to point me in the way of any study that can actually confirm this? Seeing as I can find only reference (in the Daily Mail too!) of growth in the total number of jobs in the UK of 2.2 million between 1999 & 2008 (50% private sector, 50% public sector) I am just curious as to where your 5 million migrant workers in the public sector under New Labour comes from? You surely haven’t made it up, have you? What possible reason would you have for doing so?
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Look on the bright side, less traffic on the road for a day( and consequential parking problems) and we get to save a days wages by not having to pay these hard-done-bys.
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Malcom they deserve no more respect than any other person who goes out to work and puts in a fare days work for a fare days pay.
Much of what you say with regards Teachers is true ,however much of what you say with regards what have to do within the role as a teacher is expected due to the job they do, and they are well aware of this when they apply for the job and accept a position offered .
You go on to say,
“Not only do they teach our children but they nurture and help form them into citizens”s” Indeed they play a small part in that also and it is a privileged position to be allowed to hold SOME seem to forget that.
“If anyone thinks teaching is easy I would challenge them to face, unprepared, a class of year 10s…they would eat you alive”
If this occurred Ie a teacher conducting a lesson which he has failed to prepare for having been aware he was to take a lesson then that is a major worry.
“Thee majority of teachers I have met deserve medals and to retire early if they so wish.
Indeed they do deserve to retire early as does anyone if they so wish , if they have planned for that and can afford it with out the need for the other tax payer or the country to be screwed in to the ground to pay for it,we have teachers in the past retire early with enhanced pensions who now enjoy a good retirement at the expense of other tax payers indeed it beggers belief how any of these type of people can sleep at night knowing their children and grand children are paying for them to have that luxury.As for the medal comment medals go to war heroes.
“can’t imagine the internal struggle and challenge that a teacher must go through to consider giving up a child to secure the rights of their profession”
Very easy they will think of number one and do as the union they belong to dictates, Unlike non union Teachers of which we have many .
“You have my support whatever you choose to do on the day of action and may your retirement be early, restful, long and financial comfortable for you deserve it”
Agree with this view with regards anyone who works for a living and has paid in to a pension in order to do it, with out the need for any special enhancements, you should only get out what you put in .
I am sure as with I any public sector who goes out on strike as is their right will have the support of Joe public however it is ltd and for a ltd time then it will be that’s life.
EXCUSE SPELLING , GRAMMAR, PUNCTUATION just in case a teacher addresses this post in a cheap shot manner
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Re the last sentence, if I was to address these matters, it wouldn’t be as a ‘cheap shot’. It would be because I was trying to read your post and was unable to understand what you were trying to say.
I think any half reasonable person should be able to tolerate a post which contains the odd typo or a misplaced comma or two but if it really is worth getting your ideas out to an audience, it’s also worth taking the trouble to at least make sure that audience is going to know what you’re on about.
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I am sure you understand very well what I am saying James, Put downs only ever work if the person being put down allows it. Good grief this whole post is like the bullying that goes on in a school staff room.
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So, it’s in order to denigrate an entire profession, as your last sentence appears to do and other posters have done to a far greater extent, but not to suggest that you could make yourself clearer? Fair enough, then, I’ll accept those rules for now.
I did take the trouble to read what you said as I thought it might be worth the effort. It was and I agree with some points. As for my areas of disagreement, I can only rephrase what I’ve said before. This government and the financial institutions are trying to rewrite the history of what caused the crisis in the first place by downplaying the role of the banks and emphasising supposed public-sector excess.
History is also equivocal to say the least on whether large-scale austerity is the right way out of the mess. But even if we accept that it is (and I’m not an economist so I’m not going to argue), it would at least be nice if it was clear that our rulers and the banks (especially the execs) accepted the need to absorb some of the pain themselves. And I see zero sign of that happening.
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WOW James do not ridicule the all seeing Finch.
I must say the Finch seems the only one on here to stick up for the teachers ,are you feeling unwell Today Finchy????.
I understood the post by all seeing Finch, are you in Education James? if so you probably needed a week or two to read it, digest it, understand it, and prepare your answer a little like a prepared for offsted inspection. I agree with him teachers are the same as all of us they deserve no better treatment and no profession is excluded from feeling the pain.
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‘no profession is excluded from feeling the pain.’
Those ‘the time for remorse is over’ bankers seem to believe they are.
‘you probably needed a week or two to read it, digest it, understand it’
The dates and times of our posts will set you right on that one but, yes, it was a bit of a battle. No doubt the ever-present Mr Finch will be along soon to tell us that making himself clear matters not a jot when he has wisdom to fire off in a hurry from his latest mobile device. Or something.
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James my last sentence may have been a little sweeping but to be honest is in general true.
Your argument ie blame the bankers is 100% correct but it will never ever happen they will never ever feel the pain why want something that is confined to pure fantasy land .
It is also noted on this post teachers are getting a little kicking, mainly because the action they take will result in the majority with children in state education being penalized financially even more than they already are. Where the actions of other public sector workers will make very little difference other than to that strikers pay packet.
The restructuring of peoples contracts is required and some times essential both in public and private sector as clearly the public sector conditions were far to generous in the first place and who ever agreed to them had little thought for the future generations.I know a number of teachers and lecturers who retired early yes they paid in to a pension however that pension was enhanced generously and we have the NUT telling joe public that these members deserve it ?? and we the tax payer will pay for it for future members, no we will not.
I now pay more in to a private pension MORE per month than average paid teacher it is all my money no employers contributions for me and even with the proposed cuts etc the teachers pension will still be decent and they would have contributed less than I. Although the NUT seem to be quoting what the caretakers yearly pension is when retired, quote a full time teachers pension retiring at 58-60 years with 30 odd years service.
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Having read all the comments above one trend is overwhelmingly clear – the majority of those commenting seem to be of the opinion that all our financial woes can be laid at the door of public sector workers – the vast majority of whom are not on astronomical salaries and don’t enjoy “gold plated” pensions.
Repeatedly we are told about our “indebtedness”, but no one ever seems to mention who we are in debt to….
….it wouldn’t be those same financiers who DO enjoy massive salaries and bonus packages (which bear no relationship to their performance, which let’s face it, has been generally lamentable) and platinum plated pensions?
PS – I’m a self-employed private sector worker.
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No, our financial woes are due to the last Government and it’s support of the so-called “fat-cat” financiers, it’s open door policy on immigration, it’s poor fiscal management and it’s jobs for the boys(and girls).
Therefore, the public sector, like the private sector is going to have to feel some of the pain of this country and not expect themsleves to be ring-fenced from the austerity measures now taking place.
What short memories some people have. We are in a mess and we need to get out of that mess, therefore, everyone needs to pull together. Strikes are not the answer.
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‘…everyone needs to pull together.’
A nice clear sentence I can fully agree with Woody. Thanks. If only those ‘fat-cat financiers’ you refer to also agreed with it. Remember the chief exec of Lloyds proclaiming recently that the ‘time for remorse is over’?
When the government and financiers say, as they do, ‘we need to pull together’, they really mean ‘we’re all right, Jack’. And all the time, this forum goes on doing its best to prove the old ‘divide and rule’ adage, with ordinary workers from private and public sectors casting insults at each other. Sad.
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What is wrong with standing up for what you believe in?? some of you may just roll over and say ‘ok then’ others, no matter what their job or salary is, will say hang on this isn’t right or fair!
you lot moaning and whinging need to remove that chip of your shoulder and realise some people have backbone.
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By all means stand up for yourself. But what does a strike actually achieve apart from showing one-upmanship to a Government, who, at the end of the day will push through the changes.
Surely it is better to talk through appropriate concilatory bodies, than strike, which will alienate you from the greater general public?
People aren’t moaning per se, they just find it incredible that strikes still happen in this day and age. After all, we are all being squeezed financially at the moment.
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I’m glad they have backbone, I’m glad they have the support to be able to walk outt of work one day, I in the private sector do not have the advantage of a huge union to pick a fight with my employer if I don’t like my pay. I have to put and shut up to keep a roof over my head!
No chip on my shoulder, just the fear of umemployment if I happen to choose one day to stand for what I want!
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There’s nothing to stop you joining a union in the private sector – your employer would be breaking the law if they tried to prevent you, or if they discriminated against you for doing so.
If enough of your colleagues (>50%) did so too, your employer would be forced to recognise that union, and there are many other benefits to union membership, not least amongst these free legal employment advice.
So you really don’t have to ‘put up and shut up’.
Mighty oaks can grow from little acorns!
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Back bone with the union at your rear no union then you squeek.
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I am due to take part in a Careers Day for 11 year olds at a school in Birmingham next Thursday. Having just found out that 5 of the 7 teachers of this year group (including my daughter) will be on strike that day, I am struggling to see why I should give up a day of my (private sector) work to do this if the teachers aren’t going to be there. Comments? Would you go?
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Tell them you are coming out in sympathy. And will go on strike for ever as far as their Career Days are concerned.
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In a word no. If there are no teachers yuou can bet your bottom dollar the session will be cancelled at the last minute so why waste your day and precious tiume off.
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Piece of advice from a hard worker, who doesn’t stop for lunch breaks or have so many holidays as you lot….you won’t get much as much support from the general public as you would wish, I’m sure.
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These people need a lesson on how pensions are funded and paid for and a reminder of the extra previlege they have had over the last 10 years or so.
It makes me grimace when teachers are supposedly happy to be educating our future adults but are quite ignorant of the burden they will be placing on these same individuals who will have to pay heavily to fund their old teachers retirement! The government proposals are very fair and they should take it. Its better than private sector employees are offered.
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how dare they
its outrageous they should not allow socialists and agitators into the classroom, the loony left will ruin our childrens education just to retain their tea breaks and spanish working practices
shame on you so called educationalists pure socialist
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Let the strike, it won’t get them anywhere but it save us their pay for the day.
Lets face facts, in the private sector, people may earn a higher gross salary but they work longer hours – typically 40 to 50 hours per week. I personally have a contract that I have to work 48hours per week, 8am to 6pm with a 1/2 hour lunch. I am expected to commute up to 1 hour each way on top of this 10 hour day without further pay. My company has had no pay rise for 2 years.
I drive many many miles each day so I get given a car. In 2 years I have done 70,000miles so this is less a perk, more a necessity for both sides. I have a career average pension which is only as good as the company behind it – if the company goes, my pension goes- I know this because I have already lost one pension with 10 years investments by this route.
My experience of the public sector (my clients are almost always local councils) is that they are on a 35 hour week. Overtime is unpaid but can be (and is) saved as flexi time to add to paid holidays. For some, mileage allowances are paid which subsidise car travel quite handsomely. Pensions are backed by taxpayers so will only default if the government goes broke or all the taxpayers emigrate to Australia.
So back to my point, let them strike, it can only do good for the taxpayer when they loose.
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How depressing to read these comments condemning striking public sector workers.
The government have set one set of workers against the other while those who caused the recession – the bankers and financial speculators – are protected.
Francie Maude and Danny Alexander tell us 7K pensions are unaffordable and unsustainable – but refuse to tell us what THEIR pension packages are. Gold plated wouldn’t even come close to it.
Public sector pension will actually cost the country LESS, from 2030 – due to changes negotiated just a few years ago.
Perhaps the likes of ‘Andy’ should ask themselves why non-unionised workers in the private sector have lost pensions and other entitlements? Because they didn’t join together and unionise!
This ‘beggar-thy-neighbour’ attitude is pernicious. Do you really think that if the penison a public sector worker thinks he has worked all his life for is suddenly cut down to a fraction of its original side, your average private sector worker will benefit?
No! Any money the government ‘saves’ it gives away as cuts in corporation tax to its paymasters in business and finance.
We’re on a fast-track race to the bottom, with people wishing ever-worsening conditions on one another!
Shall we fall for these lies, or start demanding the dignity of decent pay and pensions for ALL?
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One comment blames the “greed of employers” for the threatened public sector strikes. I thought we, the taxpayer and council tax payer, were the employers. That must make us all greedy!
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Andy, Woody, Iron Flag et al….. nothing like a bit of well informed teacher bashing eh? Boo and indeed, hoo….
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I’m not teacher bashing, I’m against strikes, as they are no better than blackmail.
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I work in public sector and strangely enough each month i pay a chunk of income tax and NI.!
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Boo yourself. As with most things there are good teachers and bad teachers. I’m more informed than your panto comment suggests. Go on strike, I’m simply hoping for rain, may wash away the ideological cobwebs and union brainwashing shampoo….let’s blame Thatcher or Pitt the Elder.
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its a fact that teachers have some of the best working conditions in the world and in the UK they get so much leave that per hour because they get about 30 grand a year for only working 30 weeks a year so a grand a week is like being on 52 grand a year for a real person
i have no sympathy with teachers on this im afraid
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Right, I see. Teachers aren’t “real people”. Now I understand your point of view.
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Public sector workers include, the NHS nurse’s Doctors to porters, also Police, Fire and ambulance services, they too are affected by these moves to pensions, freeze on Overtime payments and frozen pay for x years.
I am contracted to work 37.5 hrs aweek which is fine, but usually do around 50 with additional hours now unpaid,
like many others, if we adopt the the right thats my 8 hours done i am off home then the care of patients will suffer, the condems know this likewise a police officer wont down tools during a pursuit because he has done his full working contracted hours, but perhaps its time we did.
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But your extra hours correct me if I am wrong are given in time off??.
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@Andrew well it would be nice to take the time back, but its almost impossible when your acure so much so you end up losing out.
I have a police friend who did a 16 hour day on saturday, followed by an 11 day Sunday, wont be paid for it and certainly wont be allowed the time owed off, will most likely get the odd hours here and there.
@George i work in a profession that prides its self in the care of very sick people, its because of this i feel duty bound as a professional to carry on regardless as for keeping out the chance of a partimer, well that too is not an option due to Job freezes and budget cuts despite the PM stating on a big billboard that he “would cut the deficit not the nhs”
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I’m not sure you can blame the current administration for you lack of pay rises and unpaid overtime oin recent years when those policies would have tsrated under the last administration.
Its a simple rule to keep to, if you don’t like putting in the free hours then don’t, work what you consider reasonable. Its up to your bosses to adequately staff the job and in a way, by working unpaid overtime to are keeping someone else from having a part time job – how selfish of you
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‘Its a simple rule to keep to, if you don’t like putting in the free hours then don’t, work what you consider reasonable.’
Read what he/she said. The point is that public sector jobs often involve working with people, sometimes in emergency situations.
As a police officer, you can’t go home at 5 if a crime occurs at 4.55. You’ve got to go and investigate it and it’ll probably take hours.
If you’re a doctor, you might have to go and operate just as you’re preparing to go home.
Even as a teacher, which, OK, involves fewer emergency situations, you might get little Susie’s mum making an unscheduled after-hours visit to discuss the term’s progress.
Believe me, these things happen more than you’d think (I work in one of these jobs myself and have family in the others). And even if, technically, you could say, ‘no, it’s 5 o’clock, I’m not going to investigate that assault’ or ‘sorry Mrs Jones, you should have come to discuss Susie last week’, you don’t because you understand the importance of what you’re doing.
‘Its up to your bosses to adequately staff the job’. Right, and that might be at the root of why people are contemplating strike action.
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James the police officer is not doing the extra hours for free,neither is the Dr, The teacher comment depends who the teacher is good ones will stay and chat, poor ones will say “make an appointment in the day” and that experience I had on more than one occasion in the past. However the role of a teacher is very clear and what extra may be asked of them is clear through training ,job interview, etc if they are not happy with that then surely they should move on? .
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Andrew, I wasn’t saying the hours are worked free, I was saying (in reply to George@Dawley) that people in these jobs are often not in the position to say ‘right I’m off, see you tomorrow’ the second the ‘normal’ working day ends.
And yes, sure, good teachers will make the time for a parent who needs it IF THEY CAN but remember too that there might well be other pressures on their time.
I’d also ask (and will respect whatever answer is given) whether, say, a lawyer or financial consultant would meet a client unscheduled. Again, perhaps the more flexible, less self-important ones would IF THEY COULD, the up-themselves types wouldn’t(?)
And that largely reflects my stance on this whole issue. There actually isn’t as much difference between public and private sector working people as some on here are trying to make out. And your earlier ‘fantasy-land’ response to my wish for the money-men to take a hit also, I think, supports my view that the ‘divide and rule’ approach of our leaders to this crisis is working depressingly well. They’ve set us against each other beautifully.
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James you are probably correct on most counts however you cant bunch all professionals in to the same pot with how they deal with joe public . Yes the Tory party have divided a country again, but lets be honest many who now complain helped put them in and were more than happy to have a go at all sections of society who they saw as a drain on the coffers as long as they were not that part of that society, in fact all of the many sectors attacked by the Tories needed to be and so does the public sector, obviously if you work with in that sector you are not going to be happy but neither can you expect support from those it does not affect.
Surly though a simple do you want redundancies and take the chance its not you or do you want us to do the reforms? would have been the better offer given to the public sector than we will implement across the board . I note Unison are coming out many unison members are low paid they need to think long and hard at what they are being dragged in to by the unions .
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“Catherine Coggins, a PCS representative from Telford, said: “The Government’s proposals are to increase workers’ pension contributions, raise the retirement age and convert the amount received to average rather than final salary level.”
Welcome to the real world, Catherine. No pay rises for four years, no pension of any kind.
Oh, but you still aren’t in the real world, are you?
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Jealousy, envy and spite, as ever.
How about turning your vitriol on companies who outsource jobs overseas, on hugely overpaid chief executives and directors who waddle around grinning at the thought of their nice fat pensions pots – while the actual workers are getting screwed right left and centre, and then being encouraged to spit on workers in a different sector rather than placing the blame where it lies.
Tragic how eager people are to jump headfirst into the trap of sniping at each other instead of having the courage to confront the real culprits.
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One target at a time, Kath. And I do not think I showed any jealousy, envy or spite “as ever” as you put it.
I was merely pointing out that many people in the private sector, even with some firms making a good profit, there haven’t been wage rises in four years.
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So are you insinuating that no employee of any such private sector firm has ever muted a word of dissatisfaction at their plight! If you are then I fear that you are deluded, if you aren’t then what is the difference between the two arguments?
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@ Matt
“One target at a time, Kath. ”
Excuse me? Someone elected you the setter of target limits, did they?
I do beg your pardon, I wasn’t informed.
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Why cant these people see beyond what they are fed by a goverment that has their backs to the wall and their respective media machines.
I am guessing that very few of the civil service knockers above have any idea of the workload, qualification, commitment, required for the various jobs and even less of what they are paid,
Yes there are a few very highly paid, and perhaps that needs to be looked at, but are you saying that these greedy individuals do no exist in the private sector, let me answer that for you, most of them are from the private sector.
Before you sit and slag off these normal working class folks most with families, try and gather a bit of information from an independant source, not hard, you may have one in your circle of friends.
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An independent source such as the BBC or the Guardian perhaps?!? No wait Channel 4 News and the Daily Mirror or should I just get the ‘ Truth’ from bob crow. The majority of media is of the left, pure propaganda, so perhaps it is you who should seek out independent sources.
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‘The majority of media is of the left, pure propaganda’
What’s your take on The Sun, NOTW, The Telegraph and The Mail then?
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Yes all of News Corp are far too “Left” for my liking…
Yours Truly,
Pol Pot.
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Em,
No, nobody forces anyone to work in the private sector.
People choose to take a job in the public or private sectors on the basis of a set of terms and conditions, including pay, pensions, annual leave etc.
In other words, a contract.
A contract is a mutual agreement between two parties to which both adhere.
When one party reneges on that contract – in this case the government – it is they who are in the wrong, and their employees are right to register their refusal to submit to non-agreed changes.
PCS, for example, negotiated changes just four years ago that the National Audit Office described as putting public sector pensions on a ‘affordable and sustainable footing’.
Why do you back millionaire MPs – hand in glove with the banks – against thousands of decent working men and women, who are only trying to protect what they believed they’d worked for.
The bile is unbelievable, the division sown by the Con Dems throuughly depressing.
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“When one party reneges on that contract – in this case the government – it is they who are in the wrong, and their employees are right to register their refusal to submit to non-agreed changes.”
But the employer says he can not afford such generous conditions any more ie no money to pay for it who£?and why do you expect everyone else to pay for it?. Personally I would offer a new contract sign it or leave after all they are the employee not the employer.
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If they have ‘no money left’, then how are they managed to find the money to go to war in Libya, which presumably costs millions per day (George Osborne refuses to say)?
How have they managed to slash corporation tax and hand billions in tax cuts to large corporations?
How do they find the money for their own truly gold plated pension schemes?
Are MPs pensions ‘affordable and sustainable’?
How do they find the money to pay bonuses to bankers at part-publicly owned banks?
How have they got the money to pay billions to private companies like Fire Control, who have built fire control centres that will never be used, yet the government is obliged to pay millions every year for them?
The government CAN afford it – The National Audit Office says public sector pensions are affordable and the cost of pensions to the public purse is set to drop significantly from 2030.
I believe public sector remuneration should come from the general taxation, because where else is it going to come from unless we enter the nightmare of a privatised, corporate state?
You may believe we should all obey our rich masters, tug our forelock and be grateful they don’t have us made into foot-stools, I don’t.
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Agree 100%.
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Aaaaaggghhhh! These wretched reply buttons don’t work properly! I was agreeing with Arthur, not Andrew. Oh, the shame.
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you will get over it I am sure of it
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At last Arthur, a voice of sense on here!
I am a civil servant and i work bloody hard at my job. I don’t get paid much more than a factory worker or sales assistant. We get annual leave, the same as any other person who is employed full time. My main benefit is my company pension that is deducted from my wage on a monthly basis, who on here would not be annoyed if that was going to be frozen or possibly taken away from them?
I’d like to know how many of you here actually work? I’m sick of Andrew Finch coming on here and slagging everyone off and having a view of everything. Do you work Mr Finch? If so, where and how many hours? or do you just sit at home trawling through the Star articles rubbing your hands in glee when you find something you can whinge about?
Yes, strikes do have a place in todays society. It’s called voting with your feet and that’s what my union is there for.
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Yes I do work striker how many hours? what I need to in order to pay my way and plan for my retirement .I pay a private pension, I also paid in to my public sector pension for 17 years which is now frozen as I cant role it in to a private pension.You say you are paid no more than a factory worker or sales assistant therefore you are low paid ie 15k a year basic working 37 hour week, so are you not protected in part with regards pension reforms ? which is the most important part of the reforms.
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Round of applause. (@ Striker)
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Thanks Kath.
So Mr Finch is still gutless to tell us what HE actually does. So because I only earn on the low scale i deserve to have my pension frozen do I?
I’m sick of Andrew Finch and his cronies coming on here with their antiquated view of the world. Who’s up for setting up a campaign to get them banned from here so we can have a sensible debate for once.
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I have said what I do before have not got a desire to repeat myself. It concerns me to see you also have a desire to ban freedom of speech . My point was if you are indeed low paid 15k the pension reforms will have little impact on you ? so whats your problem.
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‘It concerns me to see you also have a desire to ban freedom of speech.’
Have to admit it Andrew, I agree with you here. A bunch of lefties(and I guess you could call me one) debating with each other is tedious. There are forums for it elsewhere anyway.
I was actually thinking the Star should recognise your efforts in keeping these forums going. Perhaps one debate each week, on a topic of your choice, could be named ‘the Andrew Finch Debate’.
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i totally support the rights of real workers like bin men to go on strike but the teachers thats just not fair because it really effects others too
also i do think that the debt was caused by the public sector, david cameron said as much at a press conference the other day if you look at the figures the uk was in debt beofre the banks collapsed and now were more in debt that germany and france even though they too had bank failures the unique factor in the uk is the size of the public sector its just too big and its being financed with a defecit so its not covering its running costs the government under clown brown and balls up borrowed money from their banker friends to pay for hospitals and schools and things which only the poor really use anyway
its outrageous that the teachers are allowed to strike i would sack them all and get prviate sector teachers in instead
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“david cameron said as much at a press conference the other day”
Oh right, that settles it then.
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I’m sure the bin men would be delighted to know their work doesn’t affect anyone.
“the government under clown brown and balls up borrowed money from their banker friends to pay for hospitals and schools and things which only the poor really use anyway”
Now I’m really confused. Do you think Clegg, Cameron et al are not ‘friends’ with bankers? Are you suggesting that as only poor people use hospitals and schools (!!!) we shouldn’t bother funding them?
I can’t make out whose side you’re on.
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Oh well, if David Cameron said so on TV it must be true that the public sector caused the debt!
You don’t think it could be in Dave’s interests – a very rich stock brokers son at the head of a political party dependent on funding from the banks and financial sector – to re-write history in this way?
Yes, we were in debt before the banks collapsed, but the size of the debt was not historically high.
Now a right winger will usually at this point scream ‘it’s not the debt , it’s the deficit’.
Again, the fact is that the structural deficit was estimated at 2.5% before the banking meltdown and 11% afterwards.
Going into the recession the UK had the second lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7.
And even at its highest point, public sector borrowing under Labour was lower than the average over the last 50 years.
These figures are those of the IFS.
The ‘unique factor’ in the UK was not the size of the public sector, but the size of the financial sector.
Our over reliance on the City – as designed by Thatcher and enthusiastically followed by Blair and Brown (both economic RIGHT wingers) led us into a situation where they had to be bailed out or they’d take the rest of us with them.
The lack of conditions attached to this bailout astonish me to this day.
Only ‘the poor’ use non private schools and hospitals do they? I’d say its all but the very rich – and in any case it’s the poor we should be concerned with in these b
rutal times.
Yet again I find myself depressed by those who defend the millionaires in government, business and finance yet gleefully kick the teacher/civil servant/nurse/fireman next door.
Why is this?
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i agree, ive suffered so others should too
do you know in india teachers dont even get pensions, so why should shropshire teachers?
i think if people in africa will hand pick rubbish off landfill sites then thats what they should make people do in the uk too
these people are just leaches expecting to be paid and then get paid again in retirement, in the private sector some people get really badly treated so lets introduce that in the rest of the world too
in mcdonalds they dont even let them join a trade union, and in the medieval time you could whip your workers so why not whip shropshire teachers too?
to be honest i dont even know why we have teachers in indonesia children just sew clothes and things instead of going to school so why not do that in Shropshire too
Ive suffered now make them all suffer too!!
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well said firmly tongue in cheek
a race to the bottom will ruin us all
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Gerry it is about sharing the burden equally, and looking at the finances available and seeing where we can save money, not allowing one sector to think they are of such importance they are or can be made immune in the climate we all find ourselves in.
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Observations
1. The public sector is pretty much the last refuge of organised unions in this country. They have nowhere to go once their power in this area has gone.
2. All of the strikes being planned have had large majorities on very small turnout (spare the comparisons with general elections, its not a general election) so only a minority have voiced their opinions.
Let’s see what happens. I don’t see much in the way of support for this strike in the mesage boards above..
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“All of the strikes being planned have had large majorities on very small turnout (spare the comparisons with general elections, its not a general election)”
Just because it’s not a general election doesn’t make comparisons unreasonable – this thread is drowning in them.
Under a quarter of the electorate voted Conservative. No doubt naive LibDem voters, like me last time, had no clue they were in fact letting in the Tories.
Yet we have overprivileged smug-faced multi-millionaires preaching about how we all have to ‘share the pain’.
And as soon as some people start trying to make clear that the rest of us didn’t cause this mess and shouldn’t pay for it – vicious, spiteful snapping breaks out.
Many of these posts are equivalent to ‘I lost my foot in an accident, quick, chop his off too’.
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wrong andy – its about 50:50 public:private union membership, all sorts of private workers from mining to professional footballers to gas boiler installers to most actors to private sector teachers in private schools to contracted out private sector bin men and street cleaners to private sector factory workers who make our food, steel, munitions and clothing – they all have big union membership because if they need it you’re not a professional lawyer your employer will try and rip you off so get a union its like a footballer having an agent its common sense really
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Yes, but Lou we can all join a union mugs game if you ask me as we have the best employment protection laws in the world , yes fought for decades ago to get them now unions are not needed .what is happening now is the employee is telling the employer that cant happen.
I would also add no employer needs to recognize a union, a bit like the shop workers union and others of its ilk when do you hear of them ?? as much use as a stud horse with a low sperm count waste of money engaging their services.
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“we have the best employment protection laws in the world”
Maybe once, but now pretty poor compared to elsewhere in Europe.
“fought for decades ago to get them”
…..and who fought for them?, oh yes, the unions.
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To Answer#27. I have many friends and family in the public sector – nurses, teachers, admin support. I see first hand that thye have a better quality of life than I do, they work less hours and more locally. Thye have reasonable salaries and can afford decent cars, foreign holidays and beers & meals out at weeeknds. None are senior management on fat cat salaries. Thye have had a good ride in the last 10 years with protected jobs, pay rises, reduced hours and so on.
I also have many friends in the Private sector, none highers than middle managers. Most have had pay freezes or pay cuts for last 3 years, most have had pensions slashed or removed, many have had extra hours or workload imposed by combining roles. All have faced redundancy within their workplace.
If we are all in this together then the public sector needs to show willing and make savings or we are all doomed to a greek tragedy.
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“If we are all in this together then the public sector needs to show willing and make savings”
Again – wanting to drag down anyone with a better deal to the level of those in the private sector (and it’s not all of them) who are being exploited.
How about the tax-dodging ‘elite’ show willing and pay their taxes, how about eliminating the loopholes so they have to – and how about ordinary working people standing together instead ripping into each other, trying to drag each other down, and thus doing the job of the self-perpetuating over-privileged class of Cleggs, Camerons and their like for them?
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“and thus doing the job of the self-perpetuating over-privileged class of Cleggs, Camerons and their like for them?”
Arent you forgetting the Millibands, Balls, Browns and Blairs from that general sweeping statement, “sister”.
Typical Labour supporting brain donor.
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Nope, haven’t supported Labour since shortly after 1997 when I realised they’d morphed into Tories.
Can’t be bothered responding to the childish insult at the end of your post.
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‘the government under clown brown and balls up borrowed money..’
Taken from a post above (a reply to No 29), I assume by the very same Kath. Or at least someone called Kath who’s as balanced and sensible as this one.
The last line of your comment, Andy, is a sad symptom of what can happen when certain people are allowed free rein from behind a veil of internet anonymity.
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Sorry for misrepresenting Kath by suggesting the ‘clown Brown’ etc quote was hers. Otherwise, Andy, think your words have been given the response (or lack of) that they deserve.
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James,
More like most right minded people thought it a little obvious and most of the people still supporting labour have as previously stated donated their brains to the “brothers and sisters” leading this “popular revolt”.
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My opinion on this is elsewhere. In ignoring the generally accepted (ie except by absolute looney tuners) fact that a deregulated banking sector, not just here but mainly in the US, caused the crisis in the first place, you’re helping the government and its fat-cat pals re-write history.
It doesn’t matter which UK party was in office at the time – all the major ones were signed up to the ‘greed is good’, ‘light-touch regulation’ ideology.
Now these same types want ordinary folk (yourself included I take it) to ‘share the pain’ to get out of it without taking any consequences themselves.
I’m getting repetitive so I’ll stop soon but if you want to debate, can I suggest at least a little civility? Then I, and others I guess, would treat your arguments with a bit more respect.
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Kath. Just by a lottery ticket and if successful you can join them, Money will soon change a union reps mind,To many names to mention here, Start with the House of Lords.
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And on teachers – anyone who can walk into a room full of stroppy 15-year olds, *some* from homes where swearing, grunting, drinking and gawping at ‘reality’ TV while texting ‘lol hun’ endlessly to their mates constitutes family life – and emerge an hour later with no insults hurled, no missiles thrown, and at least half the young people having learned something they didn’t know before – give them all the money they want.
And anyone who disagrees can shut up till they’ve tried it.
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And so sayeth the NUT shop steward.
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Do they not walk in to that class by choice? was it not a career choice ? made by them. Going on your view of events our state schools are awful places, you would not find that in private education come to think of it some of the teachers we have in state education would not be found in a private education establishments either .
I find it amazing that *some* in the education sector have a massive case of self importance to the point of extreme arrogance which cant be good for the school they work in or the pupils they teach .
I found teachers to be very likable people however when the opinion they had was ever disagreed with the behavior you got from them was on par with a spoilt ill mannered little brat.
I along with other staff over 17 years had to put up with foul mouthed tantrums from *some* teaching staff, and they know who they are, when complaints were put in to the management STRESS was always used as an excuse given for the verbal abuse and poor behavior along with the management saying we do not want the NUT on our backs, who is the organisation the culprits scurried off to when they were aware they had over stepped the boundary.
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are you seriously suggesting if someone tears up your contract and cuts you pay by several grand a year you wont fight back? What do you want them to say, oh well fair enough back to work then, musn’t grumble.
Its designed to provoke a strike to save money obviously.
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it is clear to me that 90% of the commentators here have never worked in the public sector and dont understand that it is a diverse sector with many different people and different jobs some who work hard some who dont, some jobs are long hours others less
To stereotype them all and beleive those myths is ignorant
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Anyone get the impression Woody, Iron Flag et al who are all so keen to not listen to anyone else’s points are just jealous that they are too stupid/lazy/didn’t try hard enough at school to get a decent job?
Just shut up lads and keep paying into my healhly and swelling pension
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(@ didee) Nice one :)
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Didee, what an ignorant comment.
If you reread my comments you will see that I do understand other people’s point of view. However, I am vehemently against strikes and people who try to belittle others.
As for your other assumption, which is wrong, you obviously fit into the later group I mentioned.
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MMM I am not the one in a job where the pay has been reported as being mediocre, conditions pretty poor , etc etc stupid is going to uni for 3-5 years and taking a job with these awful conditions .As for pension unless quip I am more than happy to help you fund your lifestyle better than funding a dole scrounger .
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What an over inflated ego, as has been said on here by the few
“the job of teaching is poorly paid, and an absolute nightmare” and now they want the general public to feed and take care of them through old age because they refuse to up the their financial pension input , Please do not sponge of me I do not wish to fund you. Please a real teacher tell me well us all what is it really like, or are you intimidated by your unionized colleges .
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[tears up your contract and cuts you pay by several grand a year you wont fight back? What do you want them to say, oh well fair enough back to work then, musn’t grumble.]
That is exactly what happens in the private sector and if you want to be in work then ou have to be pragmatic sometimes.
Look at how the council is run. Do we get good value for money in the decisions that are made on our behalf by elected members for example, who may be earning more in allowances than professional council employees.
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tears up your contract and cuts you pay by several grand a year you wont fight back? What do you want them to say, oh well fair enough back to work then, musn’t grumble
“That is exactly what happens in the private sector and if you want to be in work then ou have to be pragmatic sometimes”
Rubbish there has been plenty of “action” taken by non public servants/employees
British Airways, London Underground to name but a few.
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This millionair goverment and Browns buffoons, (LAB) should feel very proud to have created all this venom, whilst they ensure that the top 5% of their sponsers enjoy the rewards, cant anyone see that sales of the designer cloths, top end cars is floureshing. Still lets keep on bashing each other eh”good plan”
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@ GC – tragic, isn’t it? So many prepared to put up with any manure that’s dumped on them (have to be pragmatic … ) and expect everyone else to do the same.
Masochism, spite, envy, defeatism, sniping at totally the wrong targets – yes, the fatcats laughing all the way to the bank (or already working in it) must be delighted to find it’s so easy to set working people against each other while they count their dosh.
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I on private reflection think we need to build a bridge of love , and hopefully the public and private sector can meet in the middle and feel the love .We can and should also welcome our teaching friends on to that bridge of love and embrace them if they would allow us to as equals.We also need to acknowledge what we are all talking about here is only at the end money its just that . So friends just back off a minute and put everything in to perspective Granted I am alright as many are but we can empathize.
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I’ve given up trying to ‘reply’, that system’s all over the place.
“You may believe we should all obey our rich masters, tug our forelock and be grateful they don’t have us made into foot-stools, I don’t.”
Best comment so far.
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Andrew Finch,
You keep making the point that teachers made a choice to enter that profession.
Private sector workers also made a choice.
Now, sadly it turns out many private sector employers took too many pension holidays, paying themselves huge salaries and bonuses and nice juicy dividends to their shareholders, instead of ensuring their pension funds were well run.
Why should public sector workers accept the agreement they have with their employer being unilaterally altered, just to assuage the burning sense of resentment some in the private sector now feel?
Why did people choose the private sector? As it paid higher for comparable jobs, although lacked the security of the public sector, with its deferred payment in the form of a pension.
If someone made the wrong decisison, that is not the fault of the public sector employee!
And Eva, do you know WHY people have their contracts torn up and get exploited by employers? Because they never stood up to their employers, unionised and said ‘no’.
Again, if you’re not prepared to stand up for yourself against an exploitative employer and accept ever worsening conditions on the basis of ‘pragmatism’ and ‘flexibility’ then more fool you, but don’t condemn those that are.
I bet your boss laughs his socks off as he parks another new Jag on the drive to his big house, while you now shop at Lidl.
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But Arthur we are standing up for ourselves as tax payers we see that terms given to public sector workers or **some** sections of them were far to generous and now need to be altered .
We also believe just because you are in the public sector you should not be immune to what everyone else is feeling,it is not envy,jealousy,spite, just a belief that we all pull our weight if your a group of ten and you have one shirker not doing their bit you drag them with you or kick them out.
I think many in the private sector including one self is very happy in it, after working in the public sector for 17 years I have no desire what so ever to go back to that unpleasant nightmare.
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So “we” can’t afford the pensions of the public sector? We CAN afford almost £1trillion pounds to bail the banks/public sector out and we CAN afford illegal wars. Funny that.
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Bail the private sector out, I meant. Obviously ;)
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I should know better than to reply to ill informed, cheap, Daily Mail comments but I can’t help myself.
I find it odd how some are happy to criticise the public sector, yet “we” don’t ever seem to criticise their jobs. Everyone relies on the public sector for their quality of life – or don’t you have children, get ill, use the roads, need you bin emptying or expect your giro on time?
It’s fast becoming a race to the bottom, where working people are treated like second class citizens and undermined and undervalued. Strange values some of us have!
You get good and bad in all walks of life but let me tell you my personal experience. I’m a teacher of nearly 32 years. I’ve helped to educate over 11,000 young people, sent many to university, and hopefully assisted in their development. Yes the holidays are nice. But the pay is mediocre, considering I spent 5 years at university. I have a clapped out car and my family can’t live on my wage alone.
I work, on average about 55-60 hours a week. At least. It takes 2 hours to mark a set of 30 books. Multiply that by 12 during the week. Add in 8-9 Parents’ Evening a year, courses attended, twilight sessions, meetings, revision sessions at weekends and in half term. Oh, and I’ve taken trips abroad in holiday time for the past 30 years, usually 7-10 days every year. I seldom finish work until 10.00 at night.
I’m in school from 8.00 to 5.00 each day, dealing with pupils and attempting to help them grow into decent citizens. Ever tried controlling 30 pupils? Try it and see how far you get on a wet Friday afternoon in November. Many adults can’t even keep their own 2 children in order let alone take responsibility for 30 each day for 6 hours.
How many people do another 3 hours each night when they get home from work? We don’t get overtime by the way or cash in hand.
I would not dream of criticising anyone else’s job. I appreciate what we all do to make GB a better place collectively so please don’t criticise me.
I’d be grateful if some of you would get off my back and give us a tiny bit of credit for our very difficult and challenging job. If it’s so easy, have a go! No I thought not.
Do I now want to pay twice as much every month into my pension fund which a year or two ago was clearly in the black? Do I wish to work with 30 teenagers every day until I’m 68? Am I happy to have my pension slashed by 3-5k each year, if I’m lucky enpough to live that long? Do me a favour and keep some of your ill informed comments to yourselves.
I have worked very hard for a very long time for my 12k gold plated pension and if society doesn’t value the work I do then I fear for the future. Unless of course you happen to be one of the 21 millionaires in the Cabinet.
Everyone should get a decent pension and be able to live out their retirement in dignity; the public sector included. It should not be a race to the bottom.
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Well said and reflects the position of most of the teachers I know – several friends are teachers and both my parents were too.
Too many of the commentators on here have something to say about everything but actually know very little and I’d be amazed if they work (or apply themselves well at it at least); they are posting on here all through the day!
Don’t let the voiciferous few get you down.
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Oh that’s it then in your opinion you know a few , so do most people its rather a popular job and most do it well. May I ask though why are the teachers out of the whole of the public sector shouting the loudest?
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My son in Year 6 was supposed to be going to HLC in Telford on the 30th June and 1st July for 2 days induction, in preparation for his move to secondary school in September. Now he’ll only have one day and I’m quite annoyed about it.
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This is my illustration of things. A little simplistic perhaps but I’m not an economist :
Two old friends, Jane (a teacher) and Sue (an insurer) decided to go on holiday. They booked the flights and hotel and agreed, having saved their money carefully, that they’d take 500 pounds each spending money.
When he heard about the holiday, their old friend Billy said he could get the best exchange rates for Jane and Sue. Their 1,000 pounds would become 1,200 if they trusted him. But when they saw Billy again a few days later he only had the equivalent of 500 pounds to give back. He didn’t want to tell Jane and Sue what had happened to the other 500 but it soon transpired that he’d lost 200 on a useless old nag at Bangor races, lent another 200 to a friend who’d then left the country and let another 100 slip through a crack in his living-room floor.
Jane and Sue were very disappointed and decided to go to the pub that evening to discuss the situation. They agreed that, if it was really necessary, they would cut their spending budget to 900 but that still meant a shortfall of 400. What could they do about that? There was a loudmouth at the pub who didn’t like Jane and told her she’d always had a cushy life and didn’t deserve a holiday anyway. Everyone just ignored him. There was also a rather more reasonable chap called Andrew. His solution was that Jane and Sue should put another 200 pounds each in to make up the 900. ‘Everyone has to share the pain,’ said Andrew, ‘but it’s fantasy land to expect Billy to pay you back, even if he caused the problem in the first place.’
Sue thought Andrew was probably right. After all, his suggestion meant neither she nor Jane would pay more relative to the other. But Jane also had another friend who thought it really wasn’t right that Billy should get away with his cheating and incompetence. This friend suggested that Jane and Sue should persist in trying to make Billy face the consequences of his actions, even if that meant staging a sit-in protest outside Billy’s front door until he agreed to pay at least some of the money back. Sue didn’t like this idea and thought she’d just shrug her shoulders and provide her extra 200 pounds, as Andrew suggested. But Jane thought the protest was worth a try.
Nobody knew whether Jane’s efforts would work. It certainly wasn’t very promising when she heard Billy repeating his old mantra ; ‘the time for remorse is over’.
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Always worth a try, but people unlike the 80′s must know when they are beaten otherwise they will reap untold misery not only themselves but their family, all this as the union barons fill their private coffers and the union reps improve their jobs and conditions. This government will not back down on this ,which Mp was it who said your all going to sleep walk in to a nightmare? prior to the election.Ken clerk like him or hate him was told to shut up 5 months ago when he said I do not think the middle classes know what is coming for them . This government got everyone to take their eye of the ball by bleating on about benefit claimants, etc etc they have dealt with that effectively to the majority of peoples satisfaction they have now targeted the public sector and they will not stop until it is all implemented .
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“This government will not back down on this”
That’s what they said about the poll tax. Look, be as defeatist as you like but for goodness sake stop trying to drag people down with you.
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With respect Kathy I and any one not in the public sector seem to be realists not prone Romanticism .
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“we all pull our weight”
Honestly, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. So, George Osborne’s next skiing holiday will be on Madeley dry ski slope, will it?
Reported in a newspaper today:
“Cable also highlighted the faster pace of pay growth for the bosses in boardrooms – 32% – compared with the 2% average”
This actually supports your point about the government targeting the middle classes – although they are going after the poor & unwaged just as much – who on earth are these people on annual payouts of millions? All in it together are we? Don’t think so.
For goodness sake give the backbiting against public sector workers* a rest and open your eyes to where the real scandal lies.
*actual workers, not council chief execs on £200,000, attack them all you want and I’ll help you
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Andrew
When will you realise that people WILL fight for their rights and not be trampled over? wheather they win or lose it won’t be for fight of trying. You have this huge chip on your shoulders where teaching is concerned, is it because of jealousy over the extra holidays they earn?? They, quite rightly, are fighting for their conditions and pay. They are not exempt from what they beleive they are due. All because the private sector have this that or the other to put up with it is not the fault of the private sectoe employees.
So Andrew, remove that chip and look at the point of view of somebody else.
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To be honest I happen to think the private sector world is a wonderful place full of opportunity where anyone can be successful if they work hard enough , I suggest many in the public sector join us .
As for teachers JEALOUS OF THE EXTRA HOLS is that meant to be serious ? I happen to think the majority of teachers do a wonderful job even if on occasion they act a little institutionalized which happens if you remain in the same environment from the age of 4.
I have never said any public sector worker should not fight for their rights any where on here as far as I am concerned they can strike as long as the ship builders did up north and good luck to them .However they need to think long and hard on for how long do they do it , Union barons and the reps will do very well out of it I am sure.
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[And Eva, do you know WHY people have their contracts torn up and get exploited by employers? Because they never stood up to their employers, unionised and said ‘no’.]
Do you live in the real world today Arthur?
The distinction between the private and public sector has been blurred for many years and so if the council make cuts, private companies, charities etc with whom they have contracts lose the work.
Managers find that the rug has been pulled from under them and they certainly are not driving around in Jags! They just try to keep their own jobs which are not paid much more than some of their more senior staff.
This then ripples out to the contractors who suddenly find their work is reduced or gone.
Joinerrus, When my other half did work for a council in the past, his office was based at the other end of a primary school. It rankled a bit when teachers jumped into their cars at 3 o’clock in the afternoon every day.
He also worked in deprived areas where he perceived a degree of menace towards anyone from the council but he was not paid any extra for health risks involved in the job.
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Andrew Finch writes:”We also believe just because you are in the public sector you should not be immune to what everyone else is feeling”.
Pay freezes, redundancies, unilaterally imposed changes to compensation agreements and privatisation have all been suffered by the public sector.
The idea that the public sector isn’t feeling the pain isn’t based on reality, but the fiction peddled by right wing papers, commentators and MPs.
Never a truer word was said when someone described the stance people like you take as a campaign for an ‘equality of misery’.
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This debate reminds me of the debate regarding social housing, where we had many private tenants and mortgage payers turning on the people earning average wages while living in social housing.
The argument was they had to pay high private rents and struggle to pay a mortgage while people in social housing paid a subsidized rent while earning an average wage ie they wanted the social tenant to suffer too , seems a very British problem.
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“With respect Kathy I and any one not in the public sector seem to be realists not prone Romanticism .”
‘prone’ = lying flat on your face. Lovely, Andrewy.
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Kathy:
2. prone Having a tendency; inclined
Guessing you’re a GCSE English teacher then…
No wonder our kids are staring into the abyss…
We really would be better off sacking most of you.
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ooooh you could have done better than that Kath
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It does make me chuckle with the bile that is spouted on this subject! teachers work and receive conditions that suit the post. Why should they stand back and allow ANY government strip them of these conditions without protesting?? There is one hell of a lot of jealousy/envy with what i’m reading on here about teachers have it good blah blah blah. Maybe some of you who think that teachers have it easy/cushy should maybe spend a day observing them and seeing what they do. I would hate to be stuck in the trenches with the likes of andrew finch et al, why bother fighting cos we’re going to die anyway attitude.
Post number 45, do you realise how utterly stupid you sound???
Andrew Finch, dinosaur, my piece is said!
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oh dear our Kaths coming across as a bully with that comment.
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This whole post brought a tear to ones eye,this chap needs to be mentioned in dispatches to our pm.55-60 HRS A WEEK WILL NOT KILL ANYONE get a grip man.May I suggest you give it all up and go and do something else instead such as factory work , muller on a 60 hour week would give you more of a wage than what the average teacher is paid, and your week ends at 60 hrs and yes you may it seems have a life, 2 good holidays a year plus a new car every two years HAPPY DAYS.
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Oh, lighten up Andy, Lord, whoever – of course I know it’s an alternative meaning, it just gave me a very amusing mental image.
And yes Andy, your repetition of the wrong version of my name to wind me up is duly noted, you’re a very clever boy. Feel better now?
btw I work in the private sector, not a teacher (although I’ve served my time), underpaid but happy!
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i support the right to strike
but i think more negotiation and consultation should be done first
its a last resort but then it seems the management has been very heavy handed on this and already committed to implementing illegal changes which they havent consulted on
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Joinerrus, I have worked in primary schools and like many posters have relatives in or retired from the teaching profession.
It took years for the actual professional status of nurses to be recognised and there are many professional posts in the council that are not paid equably with the teaching profession.
The nature of the job, the convenient fitting in with family committments and the short hours compared to other council employees has always given them an enormous advantage.
It is the most common profession to produce councillors after a usually fairly early retirement.
People who have gone from school to teacher training college then a long career in education are not necessarily equipped with a great deal of business acumen. Then who said being a councillor was public service, it’s an income to supplement a pension.
Sitting marking homework whilst watching Countdown, Eggheads or the Weakest link is not the same as working everyday until 6pm.
I remember teachers striking in the 1960s when I was at school and bemoaning their lot then too.
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what is your point eva??
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There are many people affected by these cuts and yet those who come out on strike,almost immediately are teachers. They have little hesitation in disrupting the community they serve, yet already have many advantages with pensions, pay and hours in comparison to equable professionals in local government.
I would feel that they represented others working for the council if they were not treated so differently and their automatic pay advancements were more open to scrutiny.
The moaning and bullying between what are in general, quite competive people, is what in my experience makes the job stressful.
That goes on in many council departments i acknowledge but without the 3 months respite.
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Perhaps as part of Camerons “Big Society” mission all the public sector knockers on here will be queuing up to join the Specials or go and help with transporting the elderly or vulnerable whilst the people trained to do so face redundancy and pay cuts ?
Perhaps Andrew Finch and his chums could form a Police patrol in Wellington or Shrewsbury next Friday night or go and work a Saturday evening in PRH A and E.
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Most taken out of context , and clearly 40 odd % of the country asked for a Tory government and we ALL knew what they were going to do, and it is very clear many many voted this lot in under the ah well the cuts wont affect me , and are now moaning about it, bit stupid to be honest.As for doing the roles of the ps etc police do a fantastic job get rid of pcso and the bosses can save some cash and keep qualified poilce officers, get rid of teaching assistants and save some cash and keep teachers.
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I think the point most are making on this post with regards Teachers is enough is enough.The industry is full of self congratulating people who hold themselves in high esteem and everyone else is pretty much at the bottom of the ladder.They hate to be scrutinized be it by the general public or government officials,,they fail in general to accept the industry they are in protects incompetent staff , possibly to the point of rewarding them by assisting them to leave through ill health or retirement .My daughter became a teacher and remained in that profession for 7 years before leaving and is now a managing director of a pretty large company she found the profession full of dedicated people , she found the conditions average but the pay and reward for the many poor hence why she left the profession, however she never found the Two secondary schools she worked at the hell holes some teachers describe many schools as. what she did find was on occasion very petty behavior by some staff, and some staff all to quick to go on sick leave if the head had issues with them . She also found part time staff totally unprofessional, lacking in any dedication to the school or pupils , she also was not a big fan of the NUT as many of the younger ones entering this profession aren’t.
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I respect your giving personal examples. Given some of the personal denigration that’s gone on here (most of it from what I take to be your side but not including you), it’s pretty courageous. So I’ll try to comment respectfully….
Firstly, there’s a contradiction. People think ‘enough is enough’ with teachers, you say in your first line, then you tell us your daughter left teaching because the pay and rewards were poor. I know there’s the argument that, ‘if pay and conditions are that bad you should get out’ but some people find the job itself (the satisfaction of working with kids, love of a subject etc etc) enough of a magnet to stick with it and are only asking to be given such rewards as they thought they’d signed up to.
Then there’s this line : ‘she never found the two secondary schools she worked at the hell holes some teachers describe many schools as.’ Firstly, two secondary schools is no sort of sample. Secondly, very few teachers who stick with a school actually say it’s a ‘hell-hole’. They might moan on the surface and take opportunities to refer to the difficulties but scratch that surface and you generally find plenty of devotion and dedication. And moaning about jobs is de rigeur for a lot of people, including plenty of my private sector friends.
The lines about petty behaviour and staff all too quick to go on sick leave? Well, more context might be helpful. One thing’s for sure, I hear of plenty of pettiness from private sector friends. If your daughter doesn’t see so much of these things now (and you don’t say so), I might respectfully wonder whether it’s because she’s an MD and can thus get her HR staff to deal with it.
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Yes, Woody – re utopia – I like News fron Nowhere (I edited a book on the subject).
I’m with Peter on this one. You might see me running in the quarry in a Che Guevara T (original, from my honeymoon in Cuba). If you want to mock watch ‘Motorcycle Diaries’. You will be touched. Yep I live in a big house and retired on a pblic sector pension at 47. It was funded through the stock exchange, not your taxes. I’m very happy to defend my decisions.
Kat, Wyle Cop
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You have encapsulated exactly what I have been saying ‘the lord.’
Compared to other professionals in the public sector teachers have always seen themselves as somehow better/special and they have been quick to resort to strikes, not on behalf of fellow council employees but for themselves.
The bullying amongst staff is the reason so many suffer stress and competition for the more attractive jobs in certain areas.
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As a retired Army Major I can state quite catergorically that you’ll never fins a straight back on a socialist !
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