Rallying call to save Royal British Legion clubs
- Today's leader
Shropshire Council Cabinet backs pay cuts to save jobs
Wednesday 15th June 2011, 4:55PM BST.
Shropshire Council’s Cabinet has approved plans for a 5.4 per cent pay cut for staff.
Council leader Keith Barrow told a Cabinet meeting today that cuts, which would be made over two years, were “the only solution” to avoid up to 500 job losses.
The proposals will go to a meeting of the full council on June 23.
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reckon he’s just lost himself a few thousand voters there then
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I would rather vote for a wheelbarrow !!!
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So the council cabinet have agreed a 5.4 per cent pay cut for the staff but not all the staff I might add.
The savings will go some way in paying the million pound plus it has cost the council in consulant fees to implement all these changes
No doubt the cabinet have also taken into account while making these savings, the cost that they will incur updating the councils operating systems following talks with microsoft and to supplying the members and staff with all the high tech gadgets needed to carry out their day to day work. Do we really need to change things that still work and spend even more of our money.
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It is important to note that these changes are significantly different to those previously proposed. The initial proposal was to cut salaries but to reduce the working week to 35 hours. This reduction in hours has now gone so the 5.4% drop in slalry is effectively a double whammy 10.8% drop. Staff have seen their car user allowances slashed, sickness benefits reduced to the legal minimum, redundancy pay reduced and it is proposed that pensions are to be decimated. They are also to lose annual leave and hours are to be annualised so staff may be asked to work for 10 months without a break and then told not to turn up for two months.
Redundancies are still planned and management are tight lipped about how many and when.
Where similar reductions have recently taken place in the private sector, the changes were short term emergency measures. This is a permanent and irretrevable change.
These proposals have not been put in front of the employees representatives, national negotiations have been ignored and the 90 day statutory consultation ignored. Staff have been left with an unpalatable ultimatum of agree or be sacked. Ryley has already stated to the union in writing that any employee who dares challenge these changes will be singled out for redundancy. Such victimisation of staff standing up for their statutory employment rights is illegal.
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Where similar reductions have recently taken place in the private sector, the changes were short term emergency measures. This is a permanent and irretrevable change.
The comment above is based on what evidence?, I remember a local college implemented many of the above changes around 9-10 years ago not much support from the unions on a national basis then other than sign a new contract or don’t.
As for
They are also to lose annual leave and hours are to be annualised so staff may be asked to work for 10 months without a break and then told not to turn up for two months.
Although this would be written in to a contract it is very doubtful the scenario you fear is unlikely to happen . When AS an employee I had tO agree to such terms and it never happened to me or anyone else who signed in ten years. I have also never heard it happen to any one else either other than the unions telling us about the worst case senario.
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Wrong. We saved about £1.2m by neqotiating an new enterprise agreement with Microsoft. Feel free to contact me if you want facts.
The current systems are not fit for purpose. 170 systems including 5 CRM systems, much duplication and fragmentation.
As porfolio holder (with about 40 years of IT experience), we know what needs to be done and plan to execute quickly.
Strategy, including broadband has been agreed in outline.
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So what cuts are you taking in your expenses and allowances?
And why wait so long to get new agreements with Microsoft? Could and should have been doing this years ago.
If systems are so poor, why wait, again should have been addressed years ago. What action are you taking against the suppliers of systems that are not fit for purpose?
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Allowances were frozen last year and we have taken a 5% reduction this year. Mileage rates were reduced to 40p.
The Unitary council is only two years old and most of the first 18 months was merging of many of the old councils (7 different organisations). Agree that we need to get more commercial and since taking on the newly created portfolio last September have been moving quickly. Many of the existing systems were standalone and loosely flew in formation! As part of the rationalisation we are over having the number of systems with a further scope for cost reduction.
Replacing Lotus notes is a major step but we start migration next month.
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And what has this got to do with staff losing pay and reward?
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Then you won’t mind reverting to pre unitary councillor allowances – you expect the staff to take a huge backward step – then you can lead by example by making an equal sacrifice – as your allowances were frozen after a huge increase. Your allowances can go up when you’ve balanced the books and start repaying the cuts to staff wages – a sort of payment by results option which as a died in the wool Conservative you can’t honestly object to.
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Most of us were not County councillors before, so I do not understand your point. There was a reduction in the cost of allowances overall as there was a large reduction in number of councillors (compared to total of 6 Districts & County councils).
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There is a massive difference between a cut in allowances and a cut in wages.
The latter is the food, heating, clothing, mortgage/rent, etc for individuals and families.
Your allowances and expenses are not.
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hahaha i reckon somebody is going to end up with egg on their face here
Local Government pay is set at a national level by the NJC committee, local councillors can not just invent new pay scales it would be ILLEGAL!
sack your lawyer (or perhaps you chief executive) mr barrow! before you yourself end up in court
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Who is going to take a job with Shropshire Council in the future. Management have not followed agreed procedure, have instigated sham consultations and have not complied with Employment law or agreed negotiation procedures. Not only that but you are looking at an authority that is not willing to meet its contractual obligations. I foresee a long strike and the unions taking court action.
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Council leader Keith Barrow receives somewhere in the region of £45,000 a year in “expenses” – I wonder how he is going to share the pain of these public sector cuts. Maybe his expenses should be pared down to the equivalent of the minimum wage.
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really!? wow he must have a degree or two to get that level of pay – right? or some management experience, right? surely…?
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No he’s a speculative property developer
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the only solution
sounds like adolf eichmann!!!
there is always a middle ground / a third way
it sounds like mr barrow is not up for negotiation at all which is poor leadership really and suggests there will be mass strikes because what else can the staff do if they have no on to negotiate with ??
isnt there the national reconcilliation service ACAS who could help in this case ??
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ACAS can only help if both parties are interested. It appears that the council has no interest is dealing with the unions in a grown up way. It’s almost as if they are deliberately pushing for lengthy industrial action
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Good on them
Council workers are over paid and under worked!
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and trolls who post rubbish such as that H demonstrate their clear ignorance of fact.
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Errr….actually….in my line of work anyway, H’s comment is pretty spot on! The council employees get a far (FAR) better salary and do a fraction of the work that we do in the for the private company that works in the same field as they do. Unless you class hard work as swanning off around the county all day long and then petending to be someone of importance in meetings when really you know very little indeed!
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So why haven’t you applied to join if the grass is so much greener?
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Use ur brains matey boy, there are cuts occurring people at risk of losing their jobs, the public sector isn’t really gunna be handing out new jobs on such favourable terms as them whats currently working for the council now is it??? I’d love to do not alot of work, get loads of annual leave, have a short working day and get paid alot of money…although i dont know if i could give up working in my lovely air conditioned office to work in the sweat box that is the shirehall tho!
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Judging by your latest comment:
‘on such favourable terms as them whats currently working for the council now is it???’(sic), sadly it seems unlikely that you would meet the basic standards of literacy required even if you did apply for a job in the public sector.
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Any evidence for that? Ever worked in the public sector?
Thought not…
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Senior management – definitely overpaid – but most public sector workers are providing basic services on low wages. Cleaners, bin men, care workers, teaching assistants etc etc.
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Comments like this are just ridiculas. I myself am facing this pay cut , I have a family to support and they are taking 5.4% of my wages away.
Following a pay freeze for 2 years we are already struggling.
I work from home and get no allowances for costs. I have to foot them myself.
I am NOT overpaid or underworked.
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I cant imagine it will improve the efficiency of the Council to have staff moping around worrying about every penny, watching the clock and feeling bitter towards their management and elected members
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This probably means that councillors are earning more than some council employees.
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how to make friends and influence people…
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Well we were all told big cuts would come , we were told this by the Tory party prior to the election.Many people voted Tory so I assume they were aware of what was to come, but it seems on many debates that are aired on TV and written about in our media these very same people many who will strike through the summer believed the biggest cuts were for everyone else apart from them, did they not think pensions and wages would be affected ?.
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i bet public sector workers who voted tory are regretting it now!!!
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“This reduction in hours has now gone so the 5.4% drop in slalry is effectively a double whammy 10.8% drop. Staff have seen their car user allowances slashed, sickness benefits reduced to the legal minimum, redundancy pay reduced and it is proposed that pensions are to be decimated.”
Firstly, you haven’t lost 10.8% of your pay, you’ve lost 5.4%.
Secondly, welcome to the real world, you will now be in the same boat as most private sector workers but probably don’t work as hard so get over it or get another job.
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Despite their future protestations a large number of local authority jobs are not ‘skilled’, the question is would those people survive in the private sector? Sad but true, and on a linked subject we hear the union bigwigs denouncing employers salaries yet they seem all to quiet when compared to their packages.
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Change the record – I’m bored of all this rubbish about overpaid, under-worked, public sector workers.
I’ve worked in the private and public sector doing similar jobs – in the private sector I was paid more for doing less……
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“We’re all in this together” seems all the more hollow now eh? The Conservatives do what they always do, set one element of society against another so we all lose sight of the real problems.
The stereotype of the “non job” time wasting pen pusher in the public sector is no more accurate than the big bonus earning members of the private sector. Good pensions were always a perk of working in the private sector whilst wages were lower. Higher earnings but private pensions were a perk of working in the private sector. But there are always shades of grey – don’t let them set us against each other!!
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Now it’s higher wages and higher pensions in the public sector, not forgetting better redundancy terms, more holidays and better sick pay. Not a bad deal.
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The original offer was a cut in pay but reduced hours. Now staff have to work the same set hours but still receive the pay reduction. That’s a double whammy in my book.
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Dear me another uniformed post from Roadlimper
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You are right. Most staff haven’t lost 10.8%.
If you consider the combined effect of :-
Loss of essential car users allowance
Loss of cost of living pay rises
Loss of increments
5.4% pay cut
Increased pension contributions
for many staff the real figure will be closer to a 25% loss in income by 2012.
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Ph7 has stated a number of inaccuracies.
Firstly, it is a 5.4% pay cut, which is being staged over 2 years, the first part in October 2011 and the second part (which Councillor Barrow stated he would review next year) in October 2012.
Also, sick pay is not being reduced to the legal minimum at all. The proposals are that when an employee has their second (or subsequent) absence in a rolling year, they will not be paid for the first three days of it. They will though be entitled to upto 6 months full pay – this is significantly greater than the statutory sick pay amount.
In terms of annual leave, it is actually being increased for the majority of staff to 25 days on entry and to 30 days after 5 years service. Only those currently getting more than 30 days (mainly senior managers) will see it reduced.
The annualised hours has been designed to allow staff more flexibility in their working hours, matched to better service cover.
The pensions issue is a national one, over which Shropshire Council has no control.
Also, Ph7, stating “Ryley has already stated to the union in writing that any employee who dares challenge these changes will be singled out for redundancy” is totally incorrect and possible slander.
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Staff with over 5 years service currently get 31 days holiday due to the inclusion of additional public holidays a few years ago. Staff now have no choice but to take leave between Christmas and New Year as Council offices are shut (reduction in service. In addition long serving staff got another day. 95% of staff will lose a days leave and a small group will lose 2 days leave.
I have calculated that the total loss of income (salary and other benefits) is between 12.5% and 17.5%).
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Letter stating so has been published on the Unison Website. Unison’s reply outlining issue of victimisation is also published.
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Direct quote from Chief Executive’s letter to Unison:
“It is a matter for individual employees (and our recognised trade unions) whether or not to accept such a variation although that would have implications for their continuing employment with the council.”
Sounds to me that if an employee challenges the Council on the changes they will be made redundant.
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Isn’t it a shame when situations such as this arise and other workers in other sectors can only seek to effectively gloat and say things like “get over it”. Divide and conquer, that’s what these policies are based on and that’s why they’ll succeed. Personal greed is everything these days so nobody cares until it affects them. How sad.
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And another thing by the way Council workers
Your pension is being cut too
That will teach you to cause a recession!
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Except Adam23, it wasn’t council workers who caused the recession was it? Do try to keep up will you.
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i think he was joking! obviously it wasnt the public sector spending that caused the recession it was the private sector banking and housing developers / property speculators
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This is appalling! 5.4% pay cut when there has been no cost of living increase and everything keeps going up.
As the biggest employer in Shropshire, surely the council have realised that this will affect the spending in market towns if people aren’t earning as much!
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are the councillors and cheif executive facing a 5.4% pay cut too then?
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what a bunch of out of touch tory toffs
i bet that none of them ever went on the dole, emptied a dust bin, swept a road or cleaned up after a disabled children in their life!
how dare they think to determine that these people deserve a pay cut for their efforts
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Are these low paid workers not protected?????,
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Have the salaries of the Directors, Chief Exec and so called councillors who passed this been cut? I doubt it, have their expenses been slashed, again I doubt it. The Council could of made greater savings looking at how it provides services, running their buildings more cost effectivley the list is endless. My main point though is these changes in conditions are not across the board and services will suffer dramatically because of them.
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Yes is the answer to both questions. See above.
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Yes, but the Chief Executive got a 16% pay increase on appointment based on Carolyn Downs Salary!
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its not very imaginative is it???????
i think there must be hundreds of millions of pounds worth of soft savings to be made at a council, excess management, printing, stationary, travel, energy, procurement contracts cleaning property and land sales etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
i do think staff should pay their share too and accept some cuts but to be fair i think they already have done enough simply with national changes to pension contributions and the national 2 year pay freeze all staff will be putting into their pocket for about 10% of their salary already to contribute as a gift in kind / tax towards the deficit, to add another 10% meaning people will be earning 1/5 less in a matter of years is REDICULOUS even ireland hasnt done that! Its unfair, its unrealistic and its bad for morale, productivity, performance and shropshires local econonomy
it just shows poor management that they cant think of anything else to cut, I could think of a few hundred ways for Shropshire Council to save money, they are hardly the leanest organisation after all
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Maggie,
If you’re going to emphasise words by putting them in capitals, it might be best to check that you know how to spell them first.
Otherwise you might look a bit ridiculous…
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I knew two people who worked for the civil service, left their jobs to work part time,(in the private sector) and found it too much like hard work and retired, sums it up really. Vastly over staffed, too many tea trolley services and other benefits. Its not nice whats happening to council workers but totally neccessery, after all, we are all paying for your services and we do not have a choice. Now for the real world !!
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Stop the press Darel, hold everything. Darel knows two civil servants who left to work in the private sector and couldn’t handle it.
Of course, I understand fully now – everyone in the public sector must be the same then, because Darel knows of two people who allegedly couldn’t deal with working in the private sector.
Ahh, the “logic” of the great misinformed.
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As a former Civil Servant, who moved to the private sector some 15 years ago, I can tell you there are almost no perks in the Civil Service, other than at one time a degree of job security, and a reasonable final salary pension, which is now being reneged upon, by greedy Tory millionaires.
There were no bonuses, no company cars, no funded Christmas parties etc., no private medical insurance – in fact none of the ‘perks’ on offer for comparable roles in the private sector. As for tea trollies, I think you’ve been watching some 1950s Ealing comedies – I never once saw such a thing in all my years as a Civil Service.
I can assure you that I’ve seen a great deal more waste and greed in the private sector than I ever did in the public sector and I certainly don’t work the sort of extended hours I used to when a Civil Servant.
As for pension schemes, I still have a final salary pension in the private sector, which is very similar to the one I had in the Civil Service. In common with many final salary pension schemes (in both sectors) it’s now closed to new entrants, but there’s a bit of an urban myth that final salary schemes no longer exist in the private sector.
Only today, the Deputy General of the CBI was on TV, supporting the attack on public service jobs and pensions, whilst readily admitting that he had a final salary pension scheme. What a hypocrite!
One final point. People should not make the mistake of thinking that the current public service conditions for pension were set up under a Labour government. In fact, the current PCSPS terms were negotiated when Thatcher was in power. For years thereafter, Civil Servants put up with lower than inflation pay rises (or pay cuts in real terms), and were told: ‘it’s because you get a good pension’ – now, the government chooses to renege on the deal. Small wonder people are angry.
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Why all the fuss
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Having read all the comments, advice from a 70 year old, non union man. Don’t let the Management or Public put worker against worker as this leads to a slippery slope and takes a long time to get back up. Please before you write about the Council workers just stop and put yourself in their position.And no I have never worked for the Council, I was an engineer.
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worked in the private sector for 5 years and the public sector for 5 too, earned more when I was 21 working in the private sector than I do now! most people in council / social / charity jobs arent in it for the money are they
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Why are they doing it then?, lets be honest here private sector work is a tougher life, public sector were safe jobs , now no safe jobs, now 2011, and unfortunately for the public sector worker the pay and conditions will be brought in line with that of a private sector worker and they the guv will use the current climate to implement them.
Unions will strike and will fall, and the members will lose pay etc. The only ones who will do well are the union big wigs AS SCARGILL DID and the reps when they cut a deal with the bosses for themselves when the union big wigs tell them were stuffed agree to deals, bet the rep gets put up a pay scale.
Of course if the individual wishes to strike let them but as the miners found out when they lost homes ,got in to massive debt, failed marriages etc etc remember when your beat to accept it and back down .I would also say why not say to the union we do not want pay etc cuts let the employer cut jobs and we will all take our chances.
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its tought but fair
the council needs to save money it can either get that from
tax payers
suppliers
council house residents
other income / charges eg. parking
or it can take it off the staff
now im sorry but as a taxpayer hacked off with parking and the like i dont see why i should pay, the staff there have had 13 very good years under labour and are some of the best paid people in the county asking them for a small contribution towards the debt seems reasonable to me
frankly if they dont like it they can get a job elsewhere anyway which im sure the Council would also welcome as it would help save on wages too so its a win win for the tax payer they either earn less or the get going
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“they can get a job elsewhere”…
Where would you suggest ? There’s a recession on and provate sector companies are cutting jobs because many of them rely on work from the public sector.
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“worked in the private sector for 5 years and the public sector for 5 too, earned more when I was 21 working in the private sector than I do now! most people in council / social / charity jobs arent in it for the money are they”
REALLY? What’s all this full page of moaning all about then?
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Well said Guardian.
I’ve worked for councils, I’ve worked in the private sector and I’ve run my own business for the last 20 odd years and believe me, from what I’ve seen of council employees they wouldn’t last five minutes running their own business but if they are unhappy at the council why don’t they do that? They could also try the private sector if they think they would be better off.
At the moment they all seem to work a 35 hour week and get 65p per mile car allowance. Well in the real world the self emplyed only get 40p per mile and don’t work a 35 hour week. You’re also complaining about retiring at 66 which is what the private sector are having to do as well.
So all you lot are whinging about, is having to come down to real world terms and in the real world, if you don’t like what you have, you either change it or forget it. We need less council emplyees in certain sectors anyway.
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And there you have it Roadrunner: “they all seem to work 35 hours per week”. Proof if any were needed that you know not what you talk about, but rely instead on your own misguided prejudice.
Apart from part timers who are contracted to work less than 37 hours per week, and are paid pro rata, I have yet to come across any full time council employee working 35 hours.
Mileage allowance of 65p you say? Wheverever did you dream that figure up from? When such ignorance abounds, is it any surprise that these threads are littered with nonsense from those who are either too stupid too accept that there are two sides to every story, or those who are too lazy to do some research before posting?
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Ok, Mark I’m a couple of hours a week out on your work time. What is the mileage allowance then? It’s certainly over the 40p/mile that I’m allowed and as far as I’m aware, 40p/mile was being claimed by council workers many years back ( I have friends working for various councils so do hear from time to time what goes on there).
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Oh and by the way,mark, I dreamt that figure up from here. Perhaps you should work for this council if you want a decent car allowance.
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/yep-letters/the_great_mileage_allowance_rip_off_1_3436552
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So you’ve based your observations on mileage allowance on hearsay then Roadrunner? A letter posted by an individual who is clearly of the “I’m so cynical”, anti public sector school of posting is hardly conclusive evidence now is it?
I don’t know from where DS Boyes obtained his or her information, but assuming it came from a report in the Yorkshire Evening Post, I think it can be taken with a pinch of salt. After all, local media is often without bias when it comes to reporting on council issues. Even if DS Boyce’s information were correct, what may apply in Leeds does not apply everywhere else.
For example – you question the mileage allowances where I work. If your car has a 1300cc plus engine, it is currently 43p per mile reducing to below 20p after 8500 miles. Granted, I doubt there will be many clocking up 8500 miles of business use. Below 1300cc is currently 37p reducing again after the above limit.
When posters come up with the regular “I have friends working in the council who tell me how it is” type comments, I’m afraid that I find myself switching off – after all, we can all use such excuses to back up our argument can’t we? Who is to know otherwise?
And finally, yes, you are a couple of hours out on my contracted work time: you’re actually many more hours out on my true weekly hours of work – I do significantly more, but I wouldn’t expect you to understand that.
So I stand by my original post. Keep believing the lies and misinformation if you wish – I prefer to base my comments on actual fact and experience.
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Peter, My wife was a Civil Servant for 30 years and retired at the age of 60 in 2003,
She even received the Emperial Service Medal. In all those years she never contributed a single penny towards her pension, her wage slip never shown any deduction towards a pension. Now and again she did receive a bonus but not on a regular basis.
What was you position in the Civil Service?
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If she paid in to a super ann pension then she must of contributed ? or she must have opted out and paid a private one or she never paid in to one?.
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John,
I worked in a number of roles over a period of 15 years in both the Home Office and the Inland Revenue – mostly in IT.
The pension was non-contributory as far as the pay slip was concerned, but it was always accepted in annual pay negotiations that the pension had a certain value, and that this led to lower pay when compared to private sector jobs for similar levels of qualification.
The pay gap became such that the government had to start paying extra allowances to those with tax accountancy skills and IT skills, due to a recruitment crisis and high levels of ‘poaching’ by the private sector.
Small bonus schemes based upon productivity may have been introduced after I left in some departments – I’d been in the private sector for some years by 2003.
I get tired of all this nonsense about public sector workers being overpaid – generally speaking they’re not. Even at the higher echelons, their salaries are dwarfed by senior exec salaries in the private sector. Whilst it’s clear that many private-sector companies have made cynical use of the recession to force salaries and wages down, and that the Government is now doing the same, I’m astonished that so many ordinary working people cannot see the futility in this race to the bottom, and to a sweatshop economy.
We have a source of income that would allow us to avoid all of these cuts – we simply need to tax the wealthiest at the same proportion of their income that the rest of us pay, rather than let them get away with paying typically less than 10% of their income in tax. That would close the £120bn annual tax gap, and solve many of our problems.
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i do not beleive it is true to say cut pay and this will mean less job cuts, those job cuts will be coming too, if the work is dried up because the service is cut then there is no need for the staff
they are lying if they claim they can cut £70 million from their budget without cutting staff
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i think the workers would be niave to beleive that one, classic management spin, they will do the cut, then the job losses will still happen but perhaps just a few years later
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i worked in the public and private and voluntary sector, i was paid most in the private sector had a better pension in the public but despite the lowest pay grade i had the most job satisfaction and the most seniority in the voluntary sector i was given a pa and a significant responsibility for budgets and staff so i found my work in the voluntary sector thoroughly rewarding and good experience which allowed me to get back eventually into the public sector as a manager so it was a good springboard in that sense, anyway i work hard, i have a good pension, i pity those who dont and i support those who do, i think most people i have come across from council housing and dwp have been very professional and hard working so i dont begrudge them a good standard of living
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How about punctuation? Did you use fullstops in any of the sectors?
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i beleive its illegal because they didnt consult on cutting peoples hourly rate they consulted on cutting peoples hours
dont need to be a judge to figure that out!!
reckon their lawyers / advisors are inept
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Don not need to be a judge to know they will ignore it either typical unionist threats.
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I’m assuming all the people working in the private sector claiming that this is good and deserved will have realised that the knock on affect of several hundred council workers in Shropshire getting a 5.4% pay cut will impact on the private sector in Shropshire. That’s going to lead to a significant reduction in the amount of money those staff can spend on local shops, restaurants, pubs, services, gyms, football clubs, cinemas etc etc.
I’m also thinking that a large reduction in pay to some jobs will make them far less appealing when vacancies occur, possibly leading to the better skilled, better qualified, better staff going elsewhere.
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“I get tired of all this nonsense about public sector workers being overpaid – generally speaking they’re not. Even at the higher echelons, their salaries are dwarfed by senior exec salaries in the private sector. Whilst it’s clear that many private-sector companies have made cynical use of the recession to force salaries and wages down, and that the Government is now doing the same, I’m astonished that so many ordinary working people cannot see the futility in this race to the bottom, and to a sweatshop economy.”
Speaking as a member of the public, I believe that the biggest gripe is the money wasted by public sector. I don’t care what the chairman of Quickfit earns because his wages are paid from the profits of the company (just as mine are), what the general public begrudge is CEO’s on £180,000/ annum spending close on half a million on un-needed office refurbs, council officers wasting money buying stationery at inflated prices, highway departments wasting money on un-needed traffic lights when the roads are full of potholes. People checking our bins for cardboard in the wrong oneand all the non jobs that could be slashed with no-one even noticing the loss. Basically councils waste a lot of our money and we pay the wages of the incompetents to organise such waste. We don’t begrudge the bin man or road sweeper his hard earned wage but even some of these are contracted out jobs now.
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Andrew Finch. Read Peters reply. He is correct.
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