Letter: Real workers are paying for public sector demands
Monday 7th March 2011, 6:00AM GMT.
Letter: I work hard. My job does not involve driving to an office, sitting on a specially constructed comfy chair behind an excessively large desk in a tastefully decorated environment complete with air conditioning and relaxing water feature and the obligatory communication system of latest computer technology.
My minimum wage for a minimum 50-hour week does not allow for such luxury. I cannot afford computers. My needs are more urgent – food, mortgage, council tax, petrol, car tax.
No money left over for future pension schemes/ retirement plans; even meeting home insurance is a struggle. No unions protect me and mine.
If I am ill time off is not a consideration, unlike the thousands of public sector workers facing job losses I will not benefit from a hefty payout should I lose my job. I am a civil engineer working in the construction trade for almost 30 years with the same local firm.
I love my job laying road surfaces. The van picks up at 5am, we travel 90 miles or more, work with machine and shovel and return home after dark.
I am sick of these advantaged public sector workers claiming “it is their right to demand” and holding us the real workers to ransom. Chief executives complaining about having to disclose if they get over £100,000; a wage the average person can only dream about.
I am worn out with subsidising their indulgent lifestyles.
T Bourne
Arleston
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I would sympathise, but I don’t because you have a choice. If you covet the lifestyle that goes with other people’s particular lines of work, you could consider changing jobs and helping yourself to a bit of it. If, on the other hand, you enjoy your job every bit as much as you suggest in your letter and wouldn’t change it for anything, then I don’t see the point in writing a letter to the paper and complaining about it.
As for berating people who are worried because they’re facing the prospect of losing their jobs… nobody should be blamed for fighting to keep what they have. Do you expect them to roll over and take it, just because you say you work harder and earn less money? That’s selfish.
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Bosses get paid more than other staff. It’s the same in the private sector as it is in the public.
You work laying road surfaces. That will be paid for by the public sector, contracting the work to your firm. The bulk of the work in planning the road surfacing, arranging the contract for your firm, making sure it (and so you) gets paid is dealt with by “ordinary” public sector workers.
Don’t lump the pay and conditions of public sector workers all together. It’s like saying that all private sector workers are like bankers!
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I totally agree with your letter. T Bourne.
It makes me cringe when I see these comfortable chattering class, pen pushers waving their placards and ‘union’ banners. What do most of these people know about real work?
Their silly demos are not only an insult to real workers but an insult to the real unions of yesteryear.
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I can only say in reply, as someone who has worked in the public sector in the past and for the past 15 years or so in the private sector, that both the letter writer and ‘HM’ clearly have no idea at all of what the average public sector worker does.
If you believe these jobs are so well-paid and so ‘comfortable’, why are you not applying for them? Did you perhaps not get the necessary qualifications when you were at school?
Do you believe that public services can run themselves? Do you not understand that public servants, like many in the private sector are often pressured to work well beyond their contracted hours for no extra pay or reward?
And if you believe that private sector businesses are paragons of efficiency, can I suggest you take a look at Railtrack, at the privatised utility companies, and most of all at some of our banks?
A very small number of public sector jobs command 6-figure salaries, but directors of large public sectors companies regularly get multi-million pound annual settlements.
The vast majority of public sector jobs are low-paid. The average ‘gold-plated’ pension is just £7,000 per annum – hardly a fortune.
Please check out your facts next time before spouting such ll-informed rubbish. Oh, and lay off the Sun and Daily mail for a bit – their propaganda causes brain atrophy.
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Peter
this is what I cannot understand. You obviously think you are well informed but what….
“the vast majority of public sector jobs are low-paid. The average ‘gold-plated’ pension is just £7,000 per annum – hardly a fortune”
What the H do you imagine the rest of us in the private sector earn?
And pensions? come on. get real mate.
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Rolf,
Firstly – I work in the private sector and have done for many years.
The figure of £7,000 pa for public sector pensions is taken from the government’s own figures – and by that I mean the current gov’t, who are hardly the friends of the public sector!
It may not be what you want to hear, and certainly not the rubbish you read in the tabloids, but it’s an unavoidable fact. Don’t forget – a typical public service pension will be half of the final salary after a full 40 years’ service. So if you do 40 years and end up earning £25,000 – you’ll get a pension of £12,500.
If you end up on a salary of £25,000 and have only done 20 years, you’ll get £6,250. Most people don’t do a full 40 years in the public service, nor even 20 years – historically many have found better paid work in the private sector.
So time for you to study the facts rather than the rumour and get real yourself – mate!
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You will find that these public sector workers out on demos are in fact not Pen pushers, but the likes of Nurses, Firemen, Police all who face pay freeze’s over the next 2 to 3 years and other lower paid public sector workers who certainly are not on the Amounts of monies listed in the original letter, but decent people doing work in the public interest, i am sure i could add our military personel to that list too.
I have seen past the Tory Ideology its a shame many others are falling for it.
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Oh come on, ‘No longer a tory’ – the front line staff are protected. It’s all the rest of the heap that have been accummulating over the years that are draining the budgets and need a sharp tug on the leash.
I guess you watched the Peter Snow prog on TV with your blinkers very firmly fitted: i.e. the number of actual frontline staff v the number of Others – and all of them on extremely good pension packages and other benefits.
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I think we should nail the widely-held assumption that nurse, firemen and the police are in the low pay bracket. Granted 20+ years ago nurses could complain but now a fairly recently qualified nurse will earn around £27,000 a year. Luxury for us council workers.
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Totally agree, T Bourne. Am just astounded how much the public sector have been getting away with all these years while the rest of us have been grafting with no pension prospects.
The words ‘pigeons’ and ‘to roost’ come to mind…
Rolf
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Can’t be that bad if you have a mortgage
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Twenty years ago you would have been working in the public sector and receiving the benefits. Have you ever thought that your bad working conditions are down to the fact that road maintenance was privatised?
As for the supposed large salaries you speak of, do you fancy working as an admin support officer for £12,000 a year. Oh, any you need qualifications to do that.
The truth of the matter is that if you compare the level of salary and qualification for roughly equivalent jobs in the private and public sector e.g. qualified highways engineers (the people who design the roads you lay) you will always find that the public sector worker is paid less.
It sounds to me that you have taken the bait hook line and sinker regarding the ‘median’ income stats used by the daily mail and the taxpayers alliance. A statistic only used because it is the only one which shows the public sector better off. If you look at other stats, the average and the mode, this argument does not wash.
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WHAT????
“The truth of the matter is that if you compare the level of salary and qualification for roughly equivalent jobs in the private and public sector e.g. qualified highways engineers (the people who design the roads you lay) you will always find that the public sector worker is paid less.”
ph7, What planet are you on, babe?
Come on out into the real world and have a look!
I can assure you that you won’t find as lucrative an admin job, with pension and benefits, in the private sector as you do in the public sector. I should know. I have had two in the public sector! I went for those jobs knowing they were the best pay and conditions around. I wasn’t wrong.
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Rolf – are you still working in the public sector then? If not, why not?
You say that you won’t find a job in the private sector with equivalent pay and benefits; maybe you’re not looking hard enough then. My wage reduced by nearly £4000 when I moved from private to public sector employment. However, that was my choice, I chose to make the change – though in hindsight it was not one of my better decisions.
You also refer to pensions with a “come on get real mate” type comment. Was it not Lord Hutton who acknowledged in his report that by far the majority will amount to around £6-7,000 pa? Is that real enough for you?
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Mark,
You are absolutely correct – it was in Lord Hutton’s report.
I fear Rolf’s research only extends as far as the Daily Mail…
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I tend to agree with you Mr. Bourne. I’m a local council worker in Hull [lab technician] and I too get very annoyed with the huge salaries the ‘top people’ within my council receive and the assumption that all local government workers have big salaries, big redundancy payouts and inflated, protected pensions. The vast majority of us are relatively low paid with the prospect of low pensions when we retire.
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Join a union and stop reading “The Scum” !
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Funny you should say ” scum ” because i remember union members shouting that at people who tried to go to work during the eighties..
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Yep , i remember them too . They crossed the picket lines and were hailed as heroes by Maggies mob . The police became renta thugs , paid vast amounts to beat striking miners up and seal off their villages from the rest of the nation .
And then she and the tories turned on their new non union friends and made sure any agreements they made were ignored , the sell off and deterioration of what had been public owned services for profit ……
Ah , the great days eh ??
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Still on minimum wage after 30 years? Working from 5.00 am till after dark for a pittance which hardly pays the bills? No pension, no prospects? You only had to add that you dig holes and lay tarmac with your bare hands to save your boss the expense of providing you with tools and the picture of servility would be complete. You should be more concerned that the vast amount of money that construction companies screw out of local authorities comes from people like me and that very little of it goes to hard working people like you.
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No offence mate but you’re not a civil engineer!
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Seconded!
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“Real workers” eh? Let me tell you this now – I currently work in both public and private sectors and have worked for much of my working life in the private sector. If you really believe that the private sector displays a superior work ethic to the public sector, then you are sadly mistaken.
So you work hard for little reward do you? Welcome to my world, do you really imagine that you’re alone on that score?
If you have been so taken in by constant lies and mistruths surrounding public sector employment, then how about applying for a job if or when this sector begins recruiting again. Maybe then your ill conceived beliefs will change, although judging by the content of your letter, I doubt it.
I don’t strike, I don’t have a comfy chair, air conditioning or any of the other comforts you seem to think come with the job. I don’t care though because I know thousands of others across both sectors don’t either, and at the day, I have a job which I work hard at.
I’m afraid that your letter shows your absolute ignorance of fact, and as such deserves little sympathy.
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Why would any sane person apply for a job in the pc world after they have had there terms and conditions changed and brought in to line with the majority in the private sector? as has been said many of these jobs are low paid in the public sector.
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Sorry Andrew, you’ve lost me there. What has PC World got to do with it?
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Your lost so am I, why am I talking about pc world ? possibly because I have spent most of today on the pc world help line. So I apologise to all on the thread when I say pc I really mean ps but I am sure you knew that mark.
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“I have spent most of today on the pc world help line.”
Please tell me you weren’t providing support!
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No a few issues with the lap top , however I think the staff needed a bit more training but unlike the public sector I suppose they do not run as many training programmes in work time.
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As someone who has worked in both the private and public sectors I feel I need to respond to this letter.
T Bourne, you are either incredibly naive or just plain ignorant in you’re stereotyping of Public Sector employees. Do you honestly believe that ALL Council, NHS, Teachers etc…enjoy the benefits you describe?
You also seem to be saying that because you do a manual job, your work is much more important and that you work much harder than non-manual workers. Your remarks are indeed quite offensive to those dedicated public sector employees who carry out day-to-day jobs that I certainly would not like to do. Tell that to a District Nurse treating people with terminal cancer or council employees having to clean-up after an RTA, or the Fireman that recovers a burnt body of child from a building.
It is good to be proud of the work you do, but to devalue other workers contribution to the society we live in smacks of self-importance, particularly when the basis for your beliefs are ignorant assumptions.
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“Don’t lump the pay and conditions of public sector workers all together. It’s like saying that all private sector workers are like bankers!”
I agree, pay ranges from just above minimum wage, all the way to higher than the Prime Minister (which I think is ridiculous).
I’m a public sector worker who can’t afford to move out of my parent’s house, so don’t assume that I’m out driving a fancy car & gulping down cocktails at the poolside while on my fancy holiday abroad, when in reality I can only afford a 13 year old car and a holiday in Wales.
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Can I just ask the original letter writer if they think the public sector is such as amazing place to work why didn’t they ever apply to work in one? And why is the media whipping up stories about ‘real work’to use Local Authorities as a scapegoat for the ongoing recession? Just because someone’s work is office based does not mean it isn’t important or necessary. Let’s leave out all the unhelpful emotive language and have a proper debate.
P.S. I would just like to confirm I don’t sit on a specially constructed comfy chair behind an excessively large desk. My office is not a tastefully decorated environment and does not have a relaxing water feature! Oh but we do have air con but
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Unfortunatley yours is the sort of rubbish job that you find in the private sector.Low pay few benefits, cant afford to be ill and you wonder why people fight to save civilised working conditions.
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Very intelligent response from you ian, facts are or soon to be, were of course you could afford to be off work with a bit of a sniffle or duvet day when the tax payers are paying for it.
lets see how many odd days are taken when you have to be off sick for more that 3 days before you get a hand out nothing to do with rubbish job it is to do with immoral behaviour by those who are abusing a system and have done so for years with the full protection of some type of Jurassic union. I would also add admin staff are paid far more in the public sector however it is clear they are over paid for what they do if they look at admin staff at some of the best and biggest companies in the uk they are possibly getting 1-2 k more for doing the same job , perhaps the tax paying public want value for money VALUE FOR MONEY being the main concern for many people.Going up a league Police officers should be paid well and are however the removal of all pcso could resolve that issue, teachers are well paid for what they do , gps are well paid for what they do , nurses are are well paid , firemen are well paid , what we hear from some in these groups is the usual blackmail you need us, yes of course we do and you are paid well and have decent working conditions what we have hear is a pay freeze and alteration to work contracts if it does not happen then they will be drawing benefits surly it is a choice that they have to make and if I was doing one of the jobs they do I would shut up .
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Andrew,
You accuse public sector workers of ‘blackmail’ for wanting decent terms and condtions of employment – and basic rights such as paid sick leave.
Yet you seem to overlook the fact that the current government are making it easier for large corporations to avoid at least £40bn per annum in tax owed, by ‘offshoring’ much the income they make from their workers’ efforts.
The excuse given by the government for this extraordinary generosity towards the rich is that these corporate parasites would leave the UK if we made them pay the huge amounts of tax they owe.
Can you not see that it is they, rather than the working people of this country – whether in the private or public sector – who are holding us all to ransom?
Do you not think that the propaganda that you have taken on board of the ‘public bad, private good’ doctrine, which is spouted on a daily basis by the Tory press, is just a diversionary attempt to keep the well-paid individuals who control our economy in all the luxury they enjoy, at the expense of the rest of us?
You wrote of your frustration at the PC World helpline, and in the same sentence, of your resentment at public sector staff being properly trained. Well, I’m afraid you simply can’t have it both ways – poor training equals lousy service.
And if you think PC World is bad enough – wait until you have to book your hospital and doctor’s appointments through s call centre – with the planned Tory privatisation of most of our National Health Service, it’s only a matter of time…
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T Bourne says what most people in this country think.The public sector has lived off the private sector for so long. Getting out of low paid jobs is not as easy as the original Jake implies for various reasons.
The public sector does not create wealth so does not itself pay for anything. It’s your taxes and mine along with all other tax revenues (including road taxes) that pay for roads etc etc.
What constitutes a fair wage I am not sure because much depends on your circumstances.Personally I would not like to survive on minimum wages. Arriva train drivers have turned down an offer of £39000 pa from 2013. I am sure that some of them have morgages too.
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Arriva trains drivers do not work in the public sector. They are employees of a private sector firm. The Welsh train drivers went on strike because Arriva drivers in England are paid more and they want parity of terms and conditions.
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I was comparing minimum wages with those proposed for Arriva train drivers. Never said anything about them being employed by anyone other than Arriva.
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I didn’t imply it was easy, did I?
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Almost by the tone of your remarks
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The public sector does not create profit but it is ridiculous to state that it does not create wealth. It invests in roads, education, healthcare and other services without which the opportunities for the rest of society to prosper would not exist. A huge number of firms in the private sector rely on public sector contracts.
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I think that you have redefined the meaning of wealth!!
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Aderyn,
I think it is you that has redefined ‘wealth’ as ‘profit’.
By providing education, the public sector creates wealth. There is a value in having people educated, and this value is created by public sector education programs.
The same is true for healthcare, as there is value in people being well rather than sick.
And what about all the other public sector jobs that have been ignored by the original writer? What about the bins being collected? Do you not think that there is value in the streets being cleared of rubbish?
The value in these activities does not come from an abstract, moral view, but also just from the practical reality of not having an uneducated, diseased society that literally wallows in its own filth! Wealth is created when the public sector carries out these jobs because normally, there is little profit to be made by private companies unless they cut corners somewhere. I’d rather have important services carried out under a mentality of getting the job done properly, than under a mentality of ‘how can we save some of the money we have been given to do this job, so that we can keep the leftovers for ourselves’.
Workers get paid money for carrying out these tasks, which they are then able to spend in society. Wealth has been created by the public sector, but not profit.
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ph7, you are wrong.
The public sector invests NOTHING. It spends your money and my money. It has no money of its own to invest in anything.
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What happens to the money it spends? Does it vaporise? Or does it go back into general circulation?
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Try running a business without roads, street lighting, litter picking, police, hospitals, etc. I don’t think you would get very far. As for not creating wealth, how much public money in Shropshire has been invested in business parks, development grants, business start up grants, etc.
Anyone who knows anything about economic knows the difference between wealth creation and profit.
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“T Bourne says what most people in this country think.”
And your evidence is? It’s not what I think.
“It’s your taxes and mine along with all other tax revenues (including road taxes) that pay for roads etc etc.”
I’m confused. Don’t you want roads? Or do you want us all to build and maintain our own, maybe just for the favoured few to use like Russia or Israel.
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Please have a look at your County Council Transport and Street section. Then you will understand that the authority has a liabilty under the Transport Act 2000 to maintain the roadwork in your county (except perhaps some Trunk Roads)
Where do you think the funding comes from? The money certainly does not grow on trees.No it’s taxes and duty etc
I fail to see the relevance of quoting countries like Israel. That small country has over 16115 kilometers of good quality roads and has a programme to extend further to cope with the 1.8 million cars in the country.When I was there some five years ago I was not aware of any travel restriction for “the favoured few” that you quote..
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Ok, let’s not tar everyone with the same brush please. I’m a public sector worker. I work hard. I don’t have an aircon’ed office, I don’t have a flash car, big house, a big desk, I earn roughly 60% of the going labour rate for the skills I have (I can prove that!) even though I’m a more senior grade. The majority of staff in the organisation I work for earn less than the national average and put in a good deal more hours than they are contracted to.
And even if you look at the top of the tree, with a Senior Director earning £150k a year (and there aren’t that many of them in reality), compare that to what YOUR bank or your energy provider is paying it’s leaders.
Because I’m a HR professional I can see exactly what I’m worth v/s what my total package (salary & pension etc) is worth. I sometimes laugh at it, but then I remember why I do it; I’m a public servant, I’m contributing towards the needs of the UK. And that’s why I turn up for work every day. But I also know I’m lucky to have a job, many don’t. I wont get a pay review until at least June 2013 and despite the rising cost of living, my pay rises have been below inflation since I joined. And that’s why you wont find the majority of us on waving banners. Instead, we’re getting on with the job the country needs us to do.
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“I wont get a pay review until at least June 2013 and despite the rising cost of living, my pay rises have been below inflation since I joined…”
I haven’t had a pay rise in four years. Doubt there’ll be one in 2012 or 2013, either.
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No, the reason you remain in the public sector is because you’re on to a good thing and you wouldn’t last a week in a modern private sector company. And that’s the case for the vast majority of public sector office-based staff. And you all know it.
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Still spouting rubbish Peasbody you lovely lad :-(
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The letter writer says they are worn out subsidising the indulgent lifestyles of public sector workers.
Another way of looking at it: how much tax does the letter writer’s minimum wage job put back into the national coffers? Does if cover the cost of the things they take for granted such as health care, education, policing, etc? Perhaps in reality, it is the higher paid workers who are helping subsidise the letter writer’s lifestyle.
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Not really I think most people will concede the lower pay end up paying more and giving more in the long run. Lets face it the higher wage earners on 40k plus were actually claiming tax credits to such an extent the government chose to stop them abusing the system yes in the rules they could apply however what would have happened if in depth checks were made on these claimant’s as to how much savings they had??.
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Pardon? Someone earning £10k a year pays more tax over their lifetime than someone on £40k a year? Would love to hear how you worked that one out.
As to your other point, sorry but how much in savings a person has is a rubbish way of saying whether someone should get tax credits or not. I have worked hard and saved almost every penny I have ever earned. I don’t go out drinking, take big holidays, buy widescreen TVs, and all the rest of it. I have chosen to work hard and save hard, where others have not. So as soon as you look at savings, I don’t get a handout but they do.
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Well julian the poor always end up paying more than the better off be it for loans,electric, gas etc and possibly put in a harder days work for their low pay. However if we did not have the low paid in our society and the valuable people who do those jobs and do those jobs well for little numeration where would we all be.
If you have saved hard then bully for you , however things such as tax credits are means tested that is why how much savings people have is important . With regards to those who have not saved and get a hand out well if you are on a low wage you can save but it is I am sure very difficult but many do save .
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Loans are nothing to do with public finance, loans come from the private sector. And I am pretty sure poor people don’t pay more for gas/electricity. It’s cheaper to supply a smaller house for a start. As for saying poor people working harder than rich people. Well, some will, some won’t, so a silly statement to make really.
If means testing looks at savings, it should also look at how much money you spend. It wouldn’t be fair if I used loop holes to make my savings invisible, yet how is that any different to fecklessly spending my savings on goods and services. It isn’t.
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Andrew,
The only tax credit available to people on over £40k a year was a very limited amount of Childrens’ Tax Credit, which tailed off to a level of zero entitlement at a level only just above that. No-one was ‘abusing the system’ it was simply an entitlement. And the threshold for cutting off these payments was based on joint rather than individual income.
The new government have also decided to remove Child Benefit from any family with at least one earner who pays higher rate tax (c.£37k). However, it will still be possible for those earning a joint income of almost £80k per year to not only continue to get their Child Benefit, but also to avoid paying any higher rate tax.
These will be people who can ‘fix’ their salaries – often husbands and wives who are directors of small companies, who can arrange their salaries to in such a way to avoid tax – in a way that ordinary PAYE taxpayers can’t.
Why isn’t that ‘abusing the system’ in your terms?
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Asking you accountant to do what is legal to pay the least amount of tax is fine. However claiming tax credit and saying you have below the amount of savings which would bar you when clearly you have, you just choose to say no because no one will check is dishonest . The amount of people claiming this benefit when a high wage earner was clearly a problem hence the door being firmly closed.
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Andrew,
You are clearly completely unaware of the rules for eligibility for Children’s Tax Credit – income is considered (and joint income – not individual income as with Child Benefit) – savings are not part of the calculation.
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Your comments are well noted.
I work for a council and for most days before I go to work, I work from home, when you get up, after me at 5.00 am, you can pass my home and I will be working it’s the one with the light on… not on a specially constructed chair with a large desk (actually it’s the kitchen table)
Yes even at 5.00 am I am working that’s because I enjoy my job and feel that I contribute to the wellbeing of the people I serve.
I work well over 50hrs a week for my council and claim no overtime but I am blessed with a very small pension and I often work through my lunch to accommodate the public I serve…..yes serve.
I can’t afford a holiday, I support a family, and I am a strong union man but I believe in our community of Shropshire we set our own high standards and wether you agree with the collation’s decisions or not we have to live with them.
My philosophy is cheerful service for all.. by the way I am on notice of redundancy from the council so in three months I could be unemployed.
Maybe road construction is my next career … if it is I will give it my all
Respect to you sir…
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Laying tarmac is not civil engineering. Also, I don’t what you think public sector workers do, but those “luxury” computers aren’t for them to mess around on and play games, they have them to do work.
Also, your job is very clear, many clerical public sector jobs require constant adjustment to changes, and loads of different skills.
Also, while everyone complains about the high wages that some of the top people get, bear this in mind:
If you make a mistake, the job will take a little longer to complete.
If the chief executive makes a mistake, millions of pounds could be lost from the council budget and the services will also have problems.
So next time you stupidly run over your own legs with a bulldozer, don’t be so quick to judge the doctor that saves you.
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I remember reading the Douglas Adams book, Life the Universe and Everthing. In it a planet gets rid of all the people seen to be useless, telephone sanitisers, hairdressers, etc. In the end the people die out due to a virus caught from a dirty phone.
Yes, it is a comical satire but this appears to be the attitude of some in this country. It is there view that if you work in the public service you must be lazy, overpaid, living off the fat of the land and basically no use to society. If it doesn’t result in profit, it has no benefit. We are seriously in danger in this country of denegrating public services so much they grind to a halt.
Private Industry may step in where they see a profit being reaped but other areas will be destroyed.
This is a ludicrous proposition.
Instead of looking to countries like Germany, where there is prosperity and good, efficient public services, we seem to be trying to outdo the Americans, where the rich do well and everyone else does poorly. A country which for a minority is in the first world but for the majority is not far off third world conditions (I’ve seen American city slums so I can speak from experience).
The Private Sector needs the public sector and vice versa. They should not be looked at in isolation.
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Peter you seem to attempt to belittle people many times when posting to defend pc workers, over the last few months with such drivel as (did you not get relevant qualifications when at school)Then go on to say the vast majority of your members are low paid then surely this reflect their qualifications then?? if not why did they apply for the job on such low wages?.
The vast majority of pc employers receive average to low pay , it is however the conditions which many have, which many tax payers have a point of view on.
Pay and conditions and work practices needed to be addressed whether a pc worker likes it or not as tax payers we expect it , and yes I am aware a pc worker pays tax, however we are are talking as tax paying private sector workers and as such will express an opinion on a group of people who’s wages we contribute to.
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Andrew – nobody is saying you shouldn’t comment as a private sector employee or employer. The issue here surrounds untruths and downright lies posted by people who clearly know little about actual fact. So don’t be surprised if those who do know something about the public sector defend themselves against the regular type of anti public sector rubbish seen on these threads.
After all, would you think it acceptable to tar every finance worker with the same brush as those who played a large part in bringing us to where we are now? Would you find it agreeable if I were to accuse the letter write of laziness simply because he repairs roads and I’ve happened in the past to drive past coned off carriageways with no sign of anyone working?
Of course it’s not acceptable, so why are so many who clearly know so little about fact unable to rise above the tabloid fed smokescreens?
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Andrew – I seek to belittle no-one.
But given that we have people who clearly know so little about public sector jobs, pay and pension arrangements willing to rubbish our hard-working public sector workers based upon no evidence other than tabloid lies, and who seek to take a ridiculously pompous ‘we pay your wages’ stance – when the reality is that all workers, private or public, contribute via the tax and NI system to pay for our public services, I feel the need to add a few facts ino the mix to aid the ignorant and gullible from time to time.
If people are going to insist on making ridiculous unsupported allegations about high pay, generous pensions and ‘soft’ jobs, then why should I not a) point out that it really isn’t like that, and b) invite them to apply for such roles – if they can muster the necessary minimum qualifications, which you always seem to overlook when making invalid comparisons to low-paid private sector jobs.
Try making comparisons on a like-for-like basis – you’ll find you get a different answer!
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It may interest you, T Bourne, to know that every one is entitled to join a trade union and the employer may not legally discriminate aginst you if you do.
You could join the GMB and become a work place representative, recruit your fellow ‘real workers’ and negotiate with your employer for better hours, pay etc.
Fancy doing that?
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“The letter writer says they are worn out subsidising the indulgent lifestyles of public sector workers.
Another way of looking at it: how much tax does the letter writer’s minimum wage job put back into the national coffers? Does if cover the cost of the things they take for granted such as health care, education, policing, etc? Perhaps in reality, it is the higher paid workers who are helping subsidise the letter writer’s lifestyle.”
Blimey, Julian what utter rubbish.
Are you trying to make the letter writerand all others who are on low wages, feel guilty that they are such a burden to the NHS,Education system, justice systemetc that you are so kindling financing for him?
Shame on him and everyone else on minimum wage who is sponging off poor Julian!
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You say it is a rubbish opinion but you don’t say why. If the letter writer, indeed all of us, had to pay for literally everything out of our pre tax salaries, would we be able to afford those services which we take for granted? That’s my only point.
I’ll happily discuss this with you. I won’t rise to your childish remark below.
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Julian, maybe you would feel happier, if all the lower paid were to tug their forlocks when you approach them in the street, to show their appreciation of your kind generousity.
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Well I can only repeat what was told to me by a council employee of some considerable years service and that was that “they all knew that in the overall scheme of things – they had it very easy” and many were struggling to find enough work to fill their day productively. Work it out for yourselves from there.
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“They all knew they had it easy”
I wouldn’t mind meeting your acquaintance Mark, and inviting him or her to spend some time at the sharp end.
If that person believes that starting before seven and often working ten hours a day plus with little or no break for lunch, and regularly working twelve days in a row is having it easy, then I guess I must have it easy.
Which council does your friend work for?
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Oh, case closed. Quick get onto the BBC news editor. Public Sector workers are definitely ‘having it easy’. Tell them that Mark spoke to a council worker once who said that “they had it easy” and that they were all “struggling for work”; It therefore must be true. No need to look deeper than this. It’s pretty clear cut to me; sample size – one!
Mind you I once spoke to someone who told me that their builder once told them they needed a whole new roof, when really they just needed a tile. Based on that rational. . . all private sector workers must be unscrupulous rip off merchants?
The words: same, tar, don’t, brush, the, with, and everyone come to mind!
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Peter, “Did you perhaps not get the necessary qualifications when you were at school” You always seem to belittle people in your replies. Do you know anything about this person? Please inform all of us of YOUR qualifications I am sure we would all like to know.
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John,
Happy to oblige. A selection of good O’level and A’ levels, taken in the 1970s when these were still robust exams. I didn’t go to University, principally because a bout of serious illness at the time intervened.
If people such as the letter writer really believe that life in the public service is easier and well-paid, then subject to having the necessary minimum qualifications, why have they never applied? I can only assume that they may not have such qualifications – hence the remark.
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so you dont even have a degree then peter!!?? well that is why you can expect to earn less than people who do, half the people at the Council have a Masters mate, i know of an ecologist there with a PhD, why on earth would you think you could earn as much as them with A levels ??????
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Perhaps I should also have mentioned the 20 plus years in the IT sector in design, programming and management.
There are more ways to earn a decent income and gain professional experience nd expertise than getting a degree – the degree just gets you a leg up to a job in the first place – experience and aptitdue is far more valuable in many careers. I’ve had many people with degrees, Masters and PhD. qualifications working to me over the years.
In any case – degree or not, if you’d bothered to read the rest of the thread, I’ve been defending public sector workers against the ignorant private sector people who claim they are overpaid, and pointing out that it is unreasonable to compare them with unskilled workers.
And most people I’ve met with degrees know where to put capital letters!
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I have worked in the public sector since the 1970s. I trained extensively to gain a professional qualification and have to do continued training to maintain that qualification. My job involves real peoples’ lives and if I do not do my job correctly people are seriously harmed or die. I am paid to work nearly 40 hours a week but will often work 50 to 60 hours for no extra money (no overtime in some areas of the public sector now). I get travel expenses to cover work mileage but the rate does not even fuel my travel to work never mind fund the miles covered doing my job on behalf of the public.
“Advantaged”? I don’t think so. “Real worker” – absolutely. There are many within the public sector who are highly trained and have the lives of others as their ultimate responsibility. They work above and beyond their required role with little or no thanks. That does not make them better or lesser than those who lay road surfaces. It does make them deserving of just reward.
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@ Andrew Finch
“pc world” ????
private cector? public cector?
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I am sure you are bright enough Kath to realise it was but an error, but I am sure pc and ps are possibly very likely bed fellows .
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ps – private sector? public sector? post scriptum?
Yes, I think I’m reasonably bright, but your posts are very hard work.
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lap top ok my fault just rushing, and a little lazy to check. when I use pod cant always get the correct button depends if I have my specs.
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Mr Bourne,
We all have the right to join a trade union and it is illegal for our employers to discriminate us in any way if we do.
You could join a union such as GMB or Unite and become a representative for your workplace and fellow ‘real workers’.
Then you could negotiate for better pay and conditions for your employer.
After all, if you’re unhappy with your pay and conditions (you seem unhappy with your current terms) then this is the best way of going about it.
Venting your spleen via the local newpaper at those you pereceive (although your perceptions are generally inaccurate) as having more favourable terms than you and your colleagues.
The difference between those workers and you is that they have unionised and negotiated better deals with the employer over a long period of time.
So, how about it, T Bourne for union rep?
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Arther you are correct sir , however employees may be entitled by law to join a union but the employer does not have to recognise that union then the employee is throwing money down the drain . Correct also unions for public sector workers have over time negotiated pay and terms for paid up and in fact non paying union members on the basis that the employer ie the government recognised that union they do however not recognise many smaller unions . NEGOTIATE that is the main word now the employer wishes to do that in order to benefit them not the employee and as such the employee can take it or leave it, they do not have to sign on the dotted line if they do not then they can ask the union who they have paid to help them keep their job . All depends on how much trust the employee has in its union.Or gamble that they will still have any job at all 2 years down the line if the country heads the same way as irland and greece.
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Andrew,
If 51% or more of your workforce join a union (any union – big or small), you are obliged by law to recognise that union and to negotiate with them on behalf of those staff who have joined.
If an employer fails to do that, then legal action, including provision for ‘protective’ pay awards, can be taken.
Negotiation is the key – decent employers will always negotiate with trades unions when required to do so. Those that have to be forced are usually up to something exploitative.
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In most private sector work places you would not get 51% to join a union not worth the hassle . I belonged to a union for 17 years not because I wanted to be in it but because my the majority of my work associates were in it and I did not want to cross a picket line with them on it after all you have to work with them. However in those 17 years the union represented us and the employer gave basically what they wanted , however when it came to change of contract then good old unison advice “sign it mate” you would have had a better fight of a corpse. I have heard since that my ex work associates have not had a pay rise since I left 6 years ago the union is not helping them much now.Unions are only good for one thing that is taking your money if I added up my monthly dues over 17 years and popped them in the bank it comes to more than what the union got me in a pay rise for the whole of the 17 years you may as well do that and let the EU do the rest for you.
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Booohoo. They worked for their jobs. As I’m sure you did. Its a different sector to you so just let bygones be bygones.
Jealousy isn’t a good trait.
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Unionised workers generally have better conditions and protections at work.
If Mr Bourne has a grievance, then it is with his employer, not those who have negotiated better terms through there union.
If he and his colleagues unionised that would put a lot of pressure on their employer to recognise their union.
Those who are well protected now are so because their union has fought for its members rights over a long period of time.
This is the constructive way for someone like Mr Bourne to improve his employment ‘package’.
Indulging in the politics of resentment will get him nowhere. If he’s not sufficiently remunerated for his efforts, then what has this got to do with public sector workers?
While I have no doubt the policies this government are pursuing will prove to be both socially and economically damaging (with a small elite protected, as ever), we are not like Greece.
The ‘Greece’ excuse for implementing these policies is scaremongering.
In the UK in 2009 the UK’s debt as a percentage of GDP was 72% , at the same time Greece’s was 119%.
Greece is also under far greater pressure to re-finance its debt – The Financial Times puts the average UK debt maturity at 13.5 years, which compares with 7.9 years for Greece, 6.4 years for Spain, and 5.4 years for Ireland.
Unlike Greece and Portugal the UK has control of its own financial affairs, with our own currency and a central bank that can set interest rates.
Greece tends to owe money to external financiers, the vast majority of UK debt – about 70 to 80 per cent – is held within the country.
Greece has also defaulted on its debt several times over the last 200 years. The UK hasn’t.
So, you can stick to the facts or join the ‘WooooooOOOOOOOOOooooo’ we’re going to end up like Greece, better close those hospitals’ brigade.
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AH well that’s it then, Arther has told us not to worry , the government is hood winking us so all sleep easy tonight . Unions turn people in to fee paying zombies .
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Andrew,
We have a budget deficit of around £113bn, and we lose tax revenues of between £100bn-£120bn every year.
Bare this in mind for the following points:
-’we cannot afford to fund universities’
-’we cannot afford to fund youth training programs’
-’we cannot afford to fund the NHS publically’
-’we cannot afford to fund a liveable pension for people’
All of those points are false. If the top banking executives are able to make £bns in bonuses again, then we can afford to fund these services.
The writer of the original letter needs to work out what side he is on. When he sees a worker on better conditions than him, he has two choices; fight for the same deal for himself, or fight to drag the other worker down to the same deal as himself.
Trade unionism does not turn people into ‘fee paying zombies’, whatever meaning you attach to that. If you become ill in this country, you receive medical attention, from one of the best healthcare systems in the entire world, totally free of charge at the point of use. If you become unemployed, as a result of economic factors beyond your control (maybe some bad gambles taken by a six or seven-figure salaried executive) you will receive financial benefits to ensure you don’t starve to death. Your children are educated free of charge from the age that they are old enough to be supervised by another adult until the age of 18, by which point they will have been given the opportunity to obtain qualifications relevant to the workplace.
Every single one of those benfits was achieved through trades unionism. Working-class people standing together to demand better pay, working conditions, and social environments. Without generations of trades union activity, you would be working 16 hour days, for bed and board, with no healthcare provision, education or benefits to help in cases of unemployment, illness or old age. If having the lifestyle you enjoy today, rather than that which I just outlined, makes you a ‘fee paying zombie’, then what on earth would you be without it?
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This is great – all those who consider themselves as workers not only fighting each other but also having no understanding or sympathy (or interest) in knowing about each others lives. By great I mean, absolutely great for this Tory government who want to de-skill everyone and employ them at wages that will compete against the Chinese.
They must weep to have such a whole lump of population they dont want really – an industrial population in a de-industrialised country. (eg YOU). Because we fought for decent health, safely and wages once – they’re going to take it back and make us pay for taking it away.
OK keep fighting and poking sticks at each other – but keep an eye on your backs.
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What sort of society do we live in when hard working, yes hard working people who in the main earn less then the average wage who are delivering essential services to the public are berated by the people they provide those services for. Yes there are some well paid jobs in the public sector, but not as well paid as they would be in the private sector, but the vast majority are poorly paid. And yes it is easy to say I don’t need their help or services when we are fit, healthy, can help ourselves and afford to do so but that will not always be the case. Meanwhile the very people who casued this financial melt down get away without comment. I would imagine that most people commenting here would have more in common with public sector workers than bankers yet they seem to escape their anger. Incidently the total amount paid by the banks in bonuses this year would pay for all the cuts that are currently being levied. One day when all these services we take for granted are gone we will regret our rush to dismantle the public sector.
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It’s worth pointing out that by the time of the change of goverment, the 72% of GDP debt had reduced to something like 62%, according to the ONS.
Of that 62%, almost half (30% of GDP) was directly as a result of bailing out failed banks. So the ‘real’ level of debt was more like 32% of GDP.
To put that into perspective, even during the height of the Thatcher cuts in the ’80s, it only dropped to about 23-24%, and in Harold MacMillan’s ‘you’ve never had it so good’ time it was more like 100%.
Our public services are being attacked for reasons of ideology – nothing else.
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whats this about “real” workers…??? are teachers, bin men, cleaners and librarians not really doing work, ontribto tax receipts and GDP, not improving society, not toiling?
of course you have fallen into the classic elephant trap of appearing not to know what you are talking about and thus no one is listening to your ill informed comments
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I wonder if the Shropshire star would be so kind as to print out all these replies and post them to your letter writer in the spirit of true engagement he won’t be able to read, comment or benefit from any of the arguments here because he doesn’t have a computer! whether that has anything to do with his job status or not is irrelevant… Although you could let him know that publicly funded libraries do offer access to the internet, and sometimes they are open at weekends. If he’s not sure he can ask a nice public sector employee how to use them… :)
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Why does private sector pay for public sector’s salaries? I work in a private sector. If I do not save for my pension, I will not get anything extra. That is what the salary is for, cover all bills and save for pension. If a private sector worker can/have to save for any extra pension, clearly public sector workers can do as well.
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Public sector pensions are contributory the staff pay for them. The element paid by the employer is effectively deferred wages.
Many private firms do have schemes where the employer pays in. This is not unusual.
Private Sector workers, instead of berating the public secotr, should ask their pension providers why the schemes are so badly managed, why huge fees are taken from the gross to create excessive profit. Try asking Gordon Brown why the first thing he did as Chancellor was to raid private pension funds and why he allowed the market to go unregulated (by the way it is the public sector who would regulate).
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Why does private sector pay for public sector’s pensions? I work in a private sector. If I do not save for my pension, I will not get anything extra. That is what the salary is for, cover all bills and save for pension. If a private sector worker can/have to save for any extra pension, clearly public sector workers can do as well.
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If a private sector worker can/have to save for any extra pension, clearly public sector workers can do as well.
Again – they do. It’s deducted from their pay.
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I work in the public sector in a specific role that I needed a degree for.
I am paid roughly 25% less than I would in a similar role for a private company but I enjoy my job and feel I do something worthwhile.
I pay tax, like private sector workers, so technically, if the arguments follow that tax payers pay for public sector wages, that would mean I also pay myself part of my wage each month!
Yes, in the public sector your employer contributes a certain amount towards your pension each month but I also pay a fairly significant amount of my wages into that same pension.
I was a former private sector worker which did exactly the same – my employer paid something and I paid something into my pension.
My husband works for a private company and HIS company does the same.
So is working in the public sector really all that different?
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Thank you Peter.” A good selection of O and A levels, how many and in which subjects?
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O’ levels in sciences (Physics & Chemistry), modern languages (French and German), Maths, English (language & literature), Music, Computer Science and even Religion (despite my atheism!) – a good balance, I hope you’ll agree?
A’ levels in Maths, Computing, Physics & General Studies.
Why the detailed interest? Are you going to respond with yours? Did you need a copy of my CV?
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Having worked for a number of Councils in the past, I think its unfair to disrespect our careers in this way. We earn our salary – yes, its perhaps a little more than you’d get paid in the private sector – but nowhere in the private sector are you expected to be mindful of so much. If you work at BT, you fix a line and hop off to the next job. If you’re a Council employee, you’ll will need to have safeguarding issues at the back of your mind, signpost to other helpful organisations, consider possible financial support or home adaptation, offer other help – honestly, even the lowliest employee of your Council will be doing this. All this on top of their ‘normal’ job. Its an epic slog working in the public sector, and people don’t realise this.
In my time, I have dealt with a number of serious concerns which have come about via the most simple, almost insignificant of dealings with members of the public. If I we’re just ‘doing my job’ and stamping each case closed, I have no doubt these issues – unknown to other authorities – would have escalated to far more serious issues.
All this with the backdrop of YOU all wanting your own way simply because you “pay Council Tax”.
The expectations placed upon our public service staff is immense – Government and Local Authority plans completely devalue their hard work and dedication. It is not pen pushing, or key tapping – its a hard old slog which, for some inexplicable reason, they do not get credit for.
Of course, some jobs within Councils will reflect old priorities, or priorities better served by staff themselves but these staff who are being asked to take a huge pay cut at a time when the cost of living has rocketed is absurd. We’d soon complain if they were to do their jobs 5% less well.
Of course, being someone who pays bills I want to see lower Council Tax, but we mustn’t devalue our public service staff – one day, it could very well be your Grandmother who writes in to ask if a dog warden can make regular visits to the street, when what she really means to say is ‘bullies are putting dog mess through my letterbox – help’.
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You must be joking, I work full time in the public sector in health care (not an office job)it is difficult work and I struggle to pay the same bills you mention.
Get real there are well paid and poorly paid jobs in both the public and private sector. Average people all over this country are struggling and as for unions – they don’t seem to have the power they used to.
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Sigh. Public sector workers DO pay into their pensions – do you think they get them for nothing? Yes, taxpayers contribute as well – public sector workers pay taxes too, did you think they were exempt?
Higher rate taxpayers (the vast majority of them in the private sector) get tax relief on their private pensions. The total cost of this tax relief is over five times as much as the cost to the taxpayer of public sector pensions.
Getting rid of this subsidy to the rich would mean we needed no cuts at all.
Guess who pays for this subsidy to people who arguably don’t need it? (Clue – you do).
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The Governement seems to have cleverly managed to get workers fighting amongst themselves.
While we the people will never fully share the same political ideology (thankfully)I feel some solidarity with eachother and a little empathy wouldn’t go amiss.
The Public sector could be more efficient and so could the private sector. The pensions black hole is real and those involved will have to realise that they will be getting average salary pensions, as Hulme suggests.
The economy is stuttering and irresponsible bankers certainly contributed to our ills. I just feel if we are more understanding of eachother’s plight we may be able to get through this period of re-adjustment in a more healthy state.
The above articles illustrate how a democrarcy works in practice my only concern is that we all need to ensure we have all the facts at our finger tips before we judge another persons circumstances.
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Come on now Mr Nice – what do you think you’re doing making balanced reasonable comments on here?
Excellent points, but you really must rant harder!!!
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I agree Mr Nice – it often saddens me on these boards to see people who earn a fraction of what the real culprits get (and fiddle) snarling and snapping at each other without ever seeing the bigger picture.
There seems to be a tendency to want to drag others around them down rather than getting together to demand what all honest workers deserve.
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Andrew Finch,
I did not say there is nothing to worry about, the point I am making is that the Con Dems peddle false comparissons with Greece, Portugal etc to scare people into accepting their destructive policies.
They could close tax avoidance loop holes and run the taxpayer owned banks for the benefit of the us all.
But they won’t, because these very people are their paymasters. That is a matter of publicly available fact.
But then, you had nothing to offer but a puerile, snide remark to my last fact filled post, did you?
I pay £9 a month for fantastic representation from my Union. Worth every penny.
Now I’m off to walk into town and sink my teeth into the first neck I come across.
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Oh Arther keep your £9 in a piggy bank don’t waste it for goodness sake. What have your union done for you? workers rights were signed and sealed decades ago , health and safety sorted, minimum wage sorted,holidays sorted,what are they doing for your pay rises?? your employer will give you one if he can afford it . Con-sine unions to the past where they belong we have enough legislation now to protect all workers , I would also add what is wrong in changing work contracts within reason and with notice? nothing.
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Sorry Rob! Ranting practice needed I admit….
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The biggest gripe that I have with public sector workers is that there seems always to be three people to one job. The number of times I have seen a couple of council vans parked up chatting to each other or council workers walking round supermarkets during the day in threes or fours. When I was a private sector engineer I didn’t have time to do my shopping with my workmates during the daytime.
I went to our local council office to query a council tax bill and was amazed to see one women have to speak to three different people, just to make an appointemnt with a fourth person, how many people does it take to carry four sheets of paper round?….four it seems if it’s in the council offices.
People should spend a day in the council offices, if they want to see a leisurely lifestyle at work.
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Unions are like New Labour. Dinosaurs from the past. We should all help the less fortunate amongst us who try to work for a living, and not relying on benefits
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to the letter writer, when you are an oap in hospital it will be a REAL worker who wipes your backside! remember that when you are down who will pick you up, when your business fails who will catch you in a safety net and break your fall, who will clean you house you and cloth you when you can no longer work in old age, oh yeah right its the public sector,
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100k for being cheif exec of any organisation is pitance, even in the voluntary sector with charities they pay better than than
i worked previously as a finance director for a small firm with only 12 employees in London and I earn more than twice that
I wouldnt begrudge these so called public sector fat cats a decent wage because otherwise you will get weak leadership and wont attract high calibre staff, honestly you could earn 100k a year in finance as a relatively junior accountant, i dont think this letter writer actually has a clue about real rates of pay in either sector
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I’m fed up with people having a go at public servants. I see it all the time on this website and they forget that they’re having a go at nurses, teachers, firemen, post workers etc. Don’t we all rely on these people?
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Peter. Allow me to reply with mine not much I’m afraid. left school not knowing what a “O” level was. Started an apprenticeship and gained a ONC in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering like you say when they were still robust exams in 1960. I then went on to become Works manager of a Engineering company [Quad Engineering L.T.D.] in 1976.I left engineering and in 2001 gained a N.V.Q. LEVEL 3 In Mechanical vehicle repair at the age of 58, so why don’t you try again for university your never to old.I then started my own company and retired aged 67 years.I now spend a great deal of my time on foreign travel. Its hard work being retired.
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T Bourne’s letter is a popularist critcism of the unions and their public sector membership.It recognises that the public sector has been over inflated wih over paid officers throughout many of its departments in the last ten years and a real and very over due redress is what the public wants.The Unions for their involvement are intent on strike action protest and discord ,such is their political and business need.These unions were founded of the deperate poverty of victorian Britain but today they are now a paralysed immoral business only seeking to increase their revenues in hard times. Think about how union membership has fallen in the last twenty years , how they’ve had to amalgamate to survive such is ther fallings. The truth is the labour party needs revenue from the unions to increase but the unions aren’t the cash cow they once were, having destroyed Britians wealth creating economy in the 70′s. Its incredible that the last bastion for most of the union membership is now in the public sector that does not create the wealth and prosperity we all need.It galling that public sector workers pay is used in subsidies to its unions funds any political party.
Hopefully the unions shal no doubt prove themselves as perfidious and useless as before such that they get more of their membership on the dole than is necessary.
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What a bunch of self indulgent greedy individuals you public sector lot are. Everything I have read confirms that if anyone is deserving of a massive lotto win it is those who have no allegiance to the last bastion of power ‘unions’. An outdated concept concerned with bellowing and yelling at the ordinary layman.
Some really do believe they are more equal than others. so much for equality in local government.
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To number 51 You are obviously unhappy with income here in Shropshire so go back to the city Shropshire does not need you.
To number 50 nursing stopped being a vocation of caring many years ago, like other public sector professions it is now driven by greedy employees working two 14hr night shifts enabling 5days free to spend spend spend. in my considerable experience big pay packets do not equate with compassion, empathy or autonomy. Abuse of the system is endemic.
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Reading all the comments has certainly been enlightening.To me it has shown all the worst and some of the best in people .However many public sector and private sector workers are really low paid and the majority do valuable work .There is however over 15%of the employees wage paid by Telford & Wrekin Council into their employees pension the employees I am led to believe pays in less than half of this amount .I assume this applies to most councils and probably most of the public sector ,thousands of private sector employees on the same money get nothing paid into their pensions by employers. T&W also pay this into councillors pensions .This is a big difference .Let us have an outlook that tries to bring about a fair wage for all workers ,it is hard to put a value on the majority of jobs ,If your sewer was blocked in your drive then a manual worker operating a set of rods would be invaluable .Qualifications are not everything but a good dose of common sense is essential .
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