Letter: Was Wrexham & Shropshire too good a deal?

Monday 7th February 2011, 6:00AM GMT.

Staff from Wrexham and Shropshire comfort each other as they prepare to board the last train at Marylebone Station for Shropshire
Staff from Wrexham and Shropshire comfort each other as they prepare to board the last train at Marylebone Station for Shropshire

Letter: As an occasional user of the now defunct Wrexham & Shropshire rail service, I entirely agree with the widely expressed sentiments about the quality of service.

However, on a more practical level, the loss of this company will very soon be keenly felt in another area, ie. our pocket.

To illustrate this point I need to travel to London soon for business, and the trip, which would have cost me £44 without Government subsidy and from my local station, is now only available via Virgin Trains after the inconvenience of travelling first to Wolverhampton (£155) or Stafford (£210), or via Chiltern Trains from Birmingham (£129).

With these operators receiving subsidy to run their services these fares are little short of outrageous; but with that wonderful thing hindsight I’m left wondering if Wrexham & Shropshire was in fact trying to offer us too good a deal?

Richard Underwood

Market Drayton


  1. 1
    The Original Jake

    It astounds me that rail operators receive vast subsidies, yet still need to charge these extortionate prices to turn in a profit. Why is our rail network so unviable?

    How much does it cost to lay & maintain a mile of electrified railway track compared with a mile of dual carriageway? What’s the capacity of each, in terms of passengers and tonnes of goods per hour? It wouldn’t surprise me if the rail network costs a lot more to operate, yet delivers a much lower efficiency. In fact, there are calculations that suggest road efficiency is three times greater than rail for both passengers and freight.

    There are those who would argue that rail travel has never been more popular and passenger numbers prove it. I would suggest that overcrowding demonstrates rail capacity has already exceeded its peak and the network cannot cope with any more.

    Yes, there’s the green argument, but that has a limited shelf life. Once we’ve managed to replace dirty internal combustion engines with clean, low or zero emission alternatives then the roads will become the greenest way to get around.

    There’s still a place for rail, of course, because there are still people who will defend their right to pay over the odds for a mode of transport that takes them from *almost* their source to *almost* their destination at a time which almost, but not quite, fits in with their plans. It’s their money and their prerogative, so I’m not going to argue with that.

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    • Paul

      How unoriginal Jake. Just how will you provide clean, low or zero (! ..what about manufacturing?) emission alternatives to combustion engines on the road. Electric vehicles ? Neither do they offer the range or the power to replace the combustion engines in private cars let alone vans or lorries. And nor will they, before our our imminent energy crunch makes the electricity they gladly guzzle so ineffeciently, too finite and expensive. Hydrogen cells ? What ? The production of hydrogen is notoriously expensive and carbon rich. Yes science will break new ground, but todays run-around-electric vehicles were patented over 25 years ago by the oil companies, so what chance the next 25 ?

      The fact is the cars golden years are numbered for a number of reasons. Firstly, public mobility and the transport of goods is increasing to the extent that road space is saturated on many trunk routes at peak times. Reliable arrival times are becoming all the more impossible to predict. And people do need to arrive on time or thereabouts as they become increasingly time poor. Then consider the political unattractiveness of new roads and the lack of suitable space to park all these vehicles in urban centres. Every major city in the world would come to a standstill if it relied on your ‘green’ car travel.

      Then combine this with the impact of the digital age and that we are increasingly time poor and you begin to realise why more people are choosing public transport – they simply need to make their time count. Next timelook at how everyone is on their iphones and blackberry’s on the train. TDoing the same is both illegal, dangerous and woefully inefficient if you were to foolishly try it driving a car (once you got a signal).

      Thirdly many commentators have been fearful for some time that we are about to hit the peak oil phenomenon, where global demand for oil exceeds the global supply of oil. This will impact all of our lives in many ways, not least of which by directly inflating the price of petrol, diesel and kerosene making its use preserve of the rich. Don’t believe me ? Check your last bill from the forecourt compared to a year ago. The onward rise is inevitable and such is the global economy’s dependence on oil, the laws of supply and demand dictate that it will happen quickly.

      Then consider that every industrialised economy around the globe has built or is building high speed rail. Yes that bastion of the private car, the USA is building it as is our own, Mongolia & Morocco ! This is mainly to add capacity, but also to replace short haul air travel to avoid the pain inflicted on economies by unaffordable kerosene. High Speed rail will slash journey times, grab market share as it has done everywhere and reinforce the points above.

      Whilst you acknowledge the green argument, your ‘limited shelf life’ comment makes it sound as if this global warming thing is just a fashionable fad. Wrong. If only it were a fad. Just because the gulfstream has been diverted from the UK this winter, giving us lower temperatures doesn’t mean it isn’t still happening. Every recognised scientist will tell you the world is progressively getting warmer, the ice caps are melting – and virtally all of them will tell you man’s carbon emissions – of which the car exhaust is a key driver – are behind it. No matter if you replace the combustion engine with an electric one it still needs manufacturing and powering which emits all too much carbon.
      You can choose to ignore all of this, but what will you tell your grandchildren when you finally realise you are wrong ?

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      • The Original Jake

        I think you need to work on your sense of scale. Rail works in very large countries, such as the USA, where long haul rapid mass transit between major hubs makes sense, but Great Britain (90,500 sq mi) is only 33% of the area of Texas (268,600 sq mi) and only 3.4% the size of contiguous USA, which makes every single rail journey here nothing more than a local hop over there. You simply cannot compare the two directly, it’s laughable.

        I’ll remind you about the green element of my post, since it didn’t seem to sink in. I said that we will manage to replace dirty internal combustion engines with clean alternatives. I didn’t say when, or what with, because I don’t know, but I believe that it will happen with advancements in science and technology. There’s no choice; it has to happen. I certainly didn’t say global warming was a fashionable fad, because I happen to know that it isn’t, so please don’t presume to pigeonhole me with climate sceptics.

        There will always be role for rail in the UK, but it’s limited by the fact that we’re a tiny island nation with only one rail link to another country. Believing that rail is the answer to all of our transport and emission problems is like using the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

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        • Brian

          According to your ‘USA theory’ that rail only works on a vast scale then surely London Underground Network is not really viable and all journeys in London should be by road and footpath. By considering the current London example it is quite obvious that rail works in small congested areas and on a world scale the UK with its land mass and population is a somewhat congested area.

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        • The Original Jake

          No, Brian, we were talking about national high speed rail links, which is a subject that you raised. Nobody mentioned metro systems. Back on topic, I said that there will always be a role for rail, but that its role is limited by our geographical constraints. I do wish you would stop trying to twist my words and put them back into my mouth.

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        • The Original Jake

          Sorry, Brian – it was Paul who raised the national high speed rail link subject, not you.

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  2. 2
    King Mad Hat

    Don’t know where you found those prices from for Virgin but I do London to Stafford frequently and it’s around £55 return. Maybe get out of first class if you need government subsidy?

    The Trains main problem was it took so long to get to your destination (Stafford – London on Virgin takes 1hr 22) and didn’t have a train arriving before 9:30ish. They had brilliant staff and brilliant trains, but if they do come back both these issues need to be addressed…

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    • Brian

      The service wasn’t helped with the fact that to suit other subsidised operators it was given a very slow routing from the Northwest of Birmingham to the Southeast Birmingham. It had to pick up at stations in the North Wales – Shropshire area that would never have been served by ‘through express services’. Yet that was its selling point, even so this was a way to get the passengers on board before the passengers got to express served mainline stations. However an upgrade of the Birmingham – Marylebone is almost complete and faster times would have been there, this coupled with a more ‘express friendly route’ through Birmingham would have shortened journey times. Shrewsbury – London is approx 2.5hrs at the moment, with the better Birmingham routing and the Chiltern route upgrade, a comparable time would have been within the service’s grasp. As for tickets all companies offer reduced fares for advance pre-booked tickets, it’s the turn up and go that is the comparable guide and I reckon this is were Wrexham and Shropshire won.

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    • mw

      King Mad Hat I do not know where you get your ticket from but I brought a ticket on Virgin (not 1st class – Standard Class) and it cost me £242.00 so where do you get your £55.00 Return? I would love to know!!!!! I have to go to London soon so please supply the info!

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  3. 3
    Tina Chadwick

    As already stated this was the only direct link to London for disabled passengers! Changing trains is a nightmare and to not force the other, subsidised companies to provide a comparable service is nothing short of disgraceful in 2011.

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  4. 4
    P.T

    Once again the rail passenger is being ripped off in the name of profit to line shareholders pockets each time they buy a rail ticket.We can now all see the massive mistake made by the Tories in selling off the railways,they are a public service not a “moneymaker” for shareholders.

    All beacause Margaret Thatcher & the Tories hated any form of state ownership,the results can now be seen “Rip Off Railways”

    It needs to go back to state control IE British Rail !

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  5. 5
    Brian

    Just checked for Tuesday 08 Feb 2011 – Stafford to London Euston, pre booked return fares 08:36 and 09:36 arriving 09:56 and 10:56 (1hr 20min) respectively with no changes £186.00 whereas the 09:43 arriving at 11:54 with 1 change (2hr 11min) is £52.80. The ‘turn up and go’ fare for all these services is £186. The first class ‘turn up and go’ fare is £281.00.

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    • Brian

      Again for Tuesday 08 Feb 2011, Wrexham – London pre booked return fare 09:00 arriving 11:38 (2hr 38min) with one change £70.00, Anytime fare £227.00. 07:00 arriving 09:38 (2hr 38min) £227.00 with First Class £348.00 return for all services. Shrewsbury – London pre booked return 08:47 arriving 11:34 (2hr 47min) £48.50 ‘turn up and go’ for the same service £185. For the 08:31 ‘turn up and go’ £231.00 First class for the 08:31 £345.00 return and for the 08:47 £278. Now what was the W&S

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  6. 6
    MJ

    mw – it’s not difficult. Go to Virgin trains website!

    http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/

    From Shrews. To London Euston
    08:47 to 11:34
    (2h 47m)
    1 change Ticket Type Standard
    Off-Peak £24.25
    OFF-PEAK SINGLE
    This ticket is only valid for routes passing through Birmingham.
    1 Adult(s) @ £24.25 : £24.25 Total: £24.25

    From London Euston to Shrews.
    19:10 to 21:59
    (2h 49m)
    1 change Ticket Type Standard
    Off-Peak £30.30

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    • Brian

      Just tried the Virgin site for the journey you stated (this time Wed 09 Feb 2011) and the off peak out single was £47.50, back as a single £59. With changes, OK for those who can book in advance, like standing on stations and want to fit in with Virgin. The whole W&S thing was that it was a no change through service.

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  7. 7
    Henry

    Cheaper tickets than the standard anytime returns can almost always be found, it just takes a moment to look on the internet. And of course booking in advance helps. Just takes a bit of planning and forward thinking!

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    • Mark

      Why can’t you just turn up an buy a ticket at a fair price? Why do we have to go through red tape and the internet? They want to sell tickets, the law of economics suggests they would sell more if they were cheaper, so why put people off travelling? If I want to turn up one day and go to London I should be able to do so without having to remortgage my home.

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      • Tyrone Sholaces

        But the laws of economics also recognise there is not unlimited demand.

        Those who want to travel will do so by booking ahead and taking advantage of the lower fares.

        Those that have to travel will get stiffed, along with those that are impulsive or incapable of planning.

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      • Paul

        Mark, would you turn up at the airport and expect a cheap walk on fare ? Of course you wouldn’t. So why demand that of city to city rail travel ?

        The reason is, both airlines and train companies use Yield Management, to price tickets according to what the market will bear and move people away from times of the day where capacity is reached (either on the infrastructure or on th mode of travel). Hence busy planes and trains in the morning are expensive, but not so at other times.

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        • Brian

          But how may airlines are in recipt of massive goverment / public subsidies and why should train operators in recipt of subsidy protect and profit with ‘Yield Management’ when a non subsidy operator can provide a peak time service better and at a true price.

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  8. 8
    GP

    Does anyone think there is a chance the wrexham to london trains will return, the route certainly took the stress out of travelling to London. On trying to arrange virgin tickets you can see why the wrexham line failed, I for one would of paid more to travel on the wrexham line, I tavelled on an afternoon virgin train last week and had to stand next to the loo’s as there were no seats untill Milton Keynes !

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  9. 9
    Matthew1982

    Cheap advance tickets are great, but not if you need to be somewhere for the start of the working day. The reality is that the biggest group of train users (commuters) is charged over the odds for an often poor service. Cheap fares are offered to entice people onto otherwise underused trains in the middle of the day and are a red herring.

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    • Paul

      Matthew, commuters who make the journey most week days and possess half a brain, will own a season ticket of some description cutting the walk on cost by as much as 40%.

      As regards poor service, you need a little context here. I have arrived on time every day for the past three weeks. How many car travellers can say the same for a 20 mile journey into the city ?

      Oh and i regularly use cheap advance fares during the peaks too.

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  10. 10
    Brian

    Forgot to add, these latest so-called cheap advance fares are from companies that get massive government subsidies. In other words the rest of us are still contributing to the ticket price even when we are not travelling, sad to say we are paying through our taxes. However the Wrexham & Shropshire – as we all know – did not receive a public subsidy, yet were effectively banned from stations, passengers, routes and appeared to have business poached from them by companies in receipt of government subsidy. As an operator without subsidy W&S should have been allowed to access stations, passengers and routes whilst the government subsidised companies gave way. One wonders how much of the subsidy ends up as shareholder dividend. Whilst accepting that the subsidy option is a part of modern railway operations and some routes will need subsidy, it still sticks in the throat that when a non-subsidy company providing a service is forced to close whilst government subsidised companies appear prosper.

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  11. 11
    Tom Key

    Why dont people got to Birmingham New Street, make the short walk to Moor Street Then get the London Marylebone.
    I go from Shrewsbury to Bicester North every weekend and thats what i do :) Occasionally from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton then Straight to banbury, but Moor Street is about £22 for London. Its easy.

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    • Brian

      Second best to a through service???. Try that short walk to Moor Street in a wheelchair or in the rain or late at night. I am sure most single women and wheel chair users would agree a short walk in a city late at night is far superior to a through service, not!!

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  12. 12
    Matt

    Virgin and the other subsidised services do not want lots more passengers!

    They want to force people who must travel to pay through the nose and then sell a few “cheap tickets” to try to fill the train. If they sold ALL tickets at a modest price, they’d have too many passengers.

    They are really not selling tickets, they are rationing places on their trains.

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    • Brian

      Spot on Matt and when someone comes along that looks like they might just be offering – 1. a better service 2. at a cheaper price 3. showing that it can be done without goverment subsidy / handout – they will do everything they can to stop the ‘new kid on the block’. After all the need to protect government handouts to maintain a profit which is paramount. As one of our favourite subsidised operators reported a 2010 profit of £67.5m which, in all fairness has seen a 29% fall from the 2009 figure of £95m – from TAS Business Monitor. Keep standing on trains, do your bit to help maintain profits and stifle competition.

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    • The Original Jake

      That pretty much echoes what I said about the existing rail system operating at capacity.

      I wouldn’t say they were rationing places; auctioning them to the highest bidder would be closer to the truth.

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  13. 13
    Brian

    Just checked the times from Chirk, Gobowen etc with National Rail Enquires and surprise, surprise it is now a dearer plus a longer journey time to London Euston / Marylebone from these stations than it was with the W&S. I well time to get the car out to drive past the local station to catch a train, step back? Moreover where is my subsidy to subsidise the now longer car trip to the station to connect with the so called faster services with standing room only?

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    • Matt

      It might be an option to get the Arriva Trains Wales train into New Street, then walk to Snow Hill or Moor Street and get the Chiltern Railways train to Marylebone? This is of no use if you have lots of luggage, or are in a wheelchair, of course.

      At least this means you don’t have to go to Euston, which is a horrible station as it is nowhere near the West End, unlike Marylebone.

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      • Brian

        At the moment that is the only option but it really is a poor second best to a through service to London from the region. In my opinion Marylebone really is a better station when compared to Euston, more of a country feel about it and as you say easier for the West End, Oxford Street, Hyde Park and on the tube network, etc etc. Looks like travel to London is not going to be easy, cheap and attractive as when the W&S ran the service. Its now with the MP’s, AM’s, Local and Regional Business Interests, County and Local Authorities and Pressure Groups, to lobby for another quality service to London and to sort out ‘Open Access’ rail arrangements so should W&S or a second W&S or another similar quality operator attempt to serve the region, they really do have a chance to operate without the other rail operators interference in order to protect their own ‘subsidy gravy train’.

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