Letter: Council tax changes waste our money
Tuesday 5th October 2010, 10:14AM BST.
Letter: Four years ago an elderly widow asked for my help. She had been threatened with court action for non-payment of her local government tax.
She could not make any sense of this because for six years she had had the same routine and she had never missed a payment.
Towards the end of each month, when she received her widow’s pension from her husband’s ex-employer, she went straight to the post office and paid her council tax.
When I investigated this problem I found that the problem wasn’t her; it was a change in the system at Telford & Wrekin.
The, then, newly-installed computer programme informed the debt collectors that there had been a non-payment for that month if you had not paid by 27th of the month!
The staff at Telford & Wrekin were very helpful when I explained the problem and we were able to solve the problem.
But until then the elderly widow had been frightened of being sent to jail even though she had paid her bills.
I was mildly irritated at the time, but if I had known then what I know now I would have been very, very angry indeed.
I now know that at the same time other council officers had not collected the £500 per month rent (payable in advance) that Telford Stage School had agreed to pay for the use of Dawley Town Hall.
There appears to be no record of any person in authority giving legal authorisation for the lease agreement to be ignored.
Group amnesia appears to have struck those involved and, no one is held responsible.
And now we are to pay for a luxury office block in the Telford Town Centre so that these council officers can throw away our hard-earned money in comfort.
This is a good example of “employment apartheid”.
It is two different worlds – those who work to earn a living and then those who are officers on the public payroll.
Councillor Denis Allen
Park Ward, Telford
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The new council offices are not being paid for with tax payers money – as has already been made clear in previous articles had Mr Ward read them corredctly. The whole build he will find is being financed by the sael of the existing TWC site. Facts required next time before writing a biased note.
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Mr Ward? Good grief, anon. Why do you not READ what is before your eyes?
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I’m sure a Councillor knows all about working hard for a living?? claiming expenses and getting an allowance? I think he will find most of the council employees who are not on a ‘substantial wage’ and certainly get paid less than their counterparts in the private sector work very hard on a daily basis catching those that do not pay their bills as they should or are claiming Housing Benefit when they are not entitled to saving the hoest payers in the borough thousands each year.
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Dear Abby, Having served in HM armed forces for 34 years in various situations in different parts of the world I happen to “believe this councillor knows about working hard for a living”. My 3 expeditions to the Arctic were not what most people would consider “easy living” either (But I concede that I volunteered for those).
The official comparisons between Public Sector and Private Sector salaries and pensions were published this week. They reveal that the average wage in the private sector is £24,180 whereas in the public sector it is £28,028 (£80 per week more!). When we look at pensions the situation is even worse. After 40 years work the average pension in the private sector is £7,856 whereas the average for the public sector is £26,614! Another major difference is that in the private sector we pay for our own pensions but in the public sector most of the payments are made by the private sector (over 30% of our local taxes are payments for local government employees pensions).
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Actually the recently published Hutton report on public sector pensions shows that the average public sector pension is £7,800 per year. Would you like to publish the link to the your figures please?
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Dennis,
There is one completely incorrect assumption in your note, and one absolute out and out inaccuracy.
Firstly the out and out inaccuracy. ‘The average public sector pension is £26,614′ Utter, utter nonsense. The average public sector pension is just £7000, with the majority receiving less than that. My figures are from sources such as the Office for National Statistics – an impeccable source fully accepted by Governments of all flavours.
Your figure of £26,614 came from only one source – the Daily Mail last week, and has been widely criticised as being an inaccurate and scurrilous misprint – it only serves to add evidence for what most of us already knew – you simply cannot believe a word you read in that vile Tory rag.
If you had even bothered to examine that figure, and looked at it in the context of even some of the most generous of public sector schemes, which provide a 1/80th per annum benefit (up to 40/80ths or 50% of salary after 40 years service), you would realise that it would give a minumum average final salary of over £53,000 per annum. Yet even in your own letter you quote an average of 28,028 – do the maths Mr Allen!
I appreciate that some of our councillors take home pretty significant amounts in ‘allowances’ and some, bizarrely, seem to have access to the pension scheme (I thought that was supposed to be for the employees?) but are you really so out of touch with the working conditions of employees of your own council that you believe a large number of them are on over £50,000 per year? Or did you just not think?
Moving on to the stated average private/public salaries, whilst I would dispute your figure for the public service anyway, even if it were a little higher, you are failing to take account of the higher level of qualifications required to enter most public service jobs. As a result, your figure for the private sector will include all non-skilled jobs, whereas the average for public sector workers would contain relatively few – thus your comparison is not statistically valid, as it is not a like-for-like one.
If I were one of the unfortunate people you represent in your ward, I think I’d be rather disturbed that I had a councillor who was prepared to a) accept what he read in the Daily Mail as gospel truth, and b) apparently couldn’t be bothered to check out his facts before going into print.
Will you now come back Mr Allen and have the honesty to admit that your figure was completely wrong?
Oh, and by the way – I work for the private sector…
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Still waiting for a retraction of your incorrect figure Mr Allen…
Please explain how you get an average pension figure of £26,614 from an average salary figure of £28,028 when the pension is paid at maximum of 50% of final salary after 40 years?
Or was the actual figure really supposed to have been £6,614?
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As a public sector employee, let me assure you that those averages you mention are anything but the norm. I too have searched on line for public sector pay averages, and have found figures varying from £23,660 (Daily Telegraph – Jan 2010)to £28,028 (Statistics Office – Sept 2010).
I wish! My colleagues and I are not even at the lower average stated, nor are we ever likely to attain that. As for the pensions figures – hasn’t Lord Hutton just acknowledged in his report that most public sector pensions will amount to between £6,000 and £10,000 p.a.? That puts a different slant on the Tory and Liberal myth that public sector pensions are gold plated.
With so much myth, lies and general clouding of the waters perpetuated about public sector employment, it’s little wonder that we are seen as the enemy who must pay for the recession and debt crisis brought about by greed and incompetence in the private sector.
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ANON,
Talking of getting facts right, the letter writer is a Denis Allen, not Mr Ward and if you think that you can build a brand new, modern building by selling a decrepid old one that is going to be knocked down, without spending a penny more, then let me in on how to do it and I will sell my old 1930s house and build a free new one.
Some people are so gullible.
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The council tax made a mess of my payments and the answer was so simple, a five year old could have sorted it out…shame the computer isn’t that old…;-)
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What Denis Allen says is usually common sense and can be relied upon .He does not belittle the majoity of council staff ,the majority are hard working ,dilgent and honest .
There are however some who are the opposite I’m afraid .They suffer selective amnesia ,will tell lies to cover up mistakes .
Remember lies told over the penguins in the park ,rules quoted that did not exist ,selective amnesia by people over the Dawley Town Hall issue .These are not in the lower ranks of the council these are by senior people .
They are like fifth columnists within the council which is slowly destroying the good work done by others ,they need to be cut adrift ,not be covered up for and the sooner the better .D.L.Barnett
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D. L. Barnett is right.
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Except, D.L. Barnett, in this case he has got his figures completely wrong!
Why, I wonder, could he not have done the minimum of research necessary to understand that his figure for average public sector pensions is almost 4 times greater than the true figure?
Also, he claims to have served in or armed forces for many years. Good for him, but doesn’t that mean that he is in receipt of the very sort of public service pension he seeks to deny to others? Doesn’t that leave him a little bit open to allegations of double standards?
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I know not who you are Matt but I do know what you are and that is, smarter than the average bear.You think about what you write and read what is written.D.L.Barnett
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Dear “Anon”, As all the Council’s property is paid for by tax-payers the old building represents tax-payers money as well. The fact that they are building the new luxury office on an expensive town centre site instead of a functional building on a cheaper site elsewhere represents a silly waste of taxpayers money. The cost does not include adequate car parking which will cause considerable extra cost to the tax-payer (yet to be revealed). I can see why you wished to remain anonymous as you obviously have little grasp of the confidence trick being played on the local tax-payer by the conservative leadership.
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What Denis Allen says is absolutely right. The non-payment of rent for Dawley Town Hall is a public disgrace and those responsible should be held accountable.
Contrast this with the heavy-hand employed by Telford & Wrekin Council when dealing with those who, often through no fault of their own, fall behind on their Council Tax payments.
The officer class at Telford & Wrekin should hang their heads in shame. Dare I say that or will I be regarded as a bully and reported to the standards board? Go ahead and try you over-paid, useless and inept. Make my day!
Anon talks rubbish as far as the Civic Offices are concerned. T&W Council has not yet received a penny from Asda for the sale of the car-park.
The Council are BORROWING MONEY to pay for its new offices and are saddling the council tax-payer with debt that will one day have to be re-paid.
Cllr George Ashcroft
Brookside Ward
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Can the rate payers of Telford and Wrekin Council please have Councillors George Ashcroft and Councillor Denis Allan transferred to Shropshire Council. We could make use of Councillors that talk the truth and common sense.
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John,
Denis Allen’s figures about public sector pensions couldn’t be further from the truth, as I’ve shown in my post above.
If you would prefer to check the facts, rather than believing recycled tabloid inaccuracies, they’re all available from the Office for National Statistics.
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Thank you Peter, You commented on pension figures before,and in my case you were incorrect,This is a saying from an accountant friend years ago “you can make figures do anything you want them to do”
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John,
The figures I quoted in a previous discussion were 100% right and taken from official sources. You, as usual, and in common with Mr Allen, offered no facts to back your claims.
In what way, specifically, was I wrong? In the vast majority of cases in the public sector, pensions are earned on a 1/80th per year basis, rising to a maximum of 40/80ths after 40 years’ service. So Mr Allen’s figures cannot be correct, and the figure quoted of £26,614 is absolutely wrong, as it was when printed in the Daily Mail.
If you have any facts to counter this please provide them. It’s a case now of put up or shut up – I note with interest that Mr Allen hasn’t returned to the forum to defend his previous figures – there a good reason for that!
As for your accountant friend, regardless of his platitudes, I doubt if even he can make 50% equal nearly 100%. Perhaps maths isn’t your strong point?
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PETER, You obviously have not been in business,if you were capable of understanding end of year accounts from Company’s, you could see how a good accountant can make a profit turn into a loss.Educate yourself and have a go. Sorry I only managed a lowly ONC Certificate in Mechanical and Electrical Engineering.
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John,
I work for a major multi-national company – and have done so for many years. Prior to that I worked in the public sector. My knowledge comes from direct experience of both – yours comes from tabloid fuelled prejudice.
The plural of ‘company’ is ‘companies’. Who knows why you thought it should involve an apostrophe…so much for your education. But then you have admitted previously to supporting the BNP, so we probably shoudn’t expect much.
Going back to the figures in dispute, given a pension figure of a maximum 50% of final salary, and an average final salary figure of
£28,028, it would be quite impossible to achieve an average pension figure of £26,614 as claimed by Mr Allen. In fact, given that the vast majority of public service employees do not have careers lasting the full 40 years, and the figure quoted in the recent report was around the £7000 mark, it seems likely that the true average pension is just £6,614.
There are the facts for you. I note you’ve never provided a single fact in any of your posts. I’ve presented these in as straightforward and simple a manner as possible, so that you might understand them.
If you’re struggling, perhaps you could run them by your accountant friend?
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Peter, Don’t go rambling on just answer the Questions I referred to in my comments
1 Have You ever been in business.?
2 Can you understand and read end of year accounts.?
3 I have stated my qualifications whats yours,
Sorry about the apostrophe, since retiring I have had to type myself, before I had a person to do it for me. You have committed the worst cardinal sin in business, that is belittling somebody, with not being in a management role you probably would not know.
This is the end of my comments on the subject.
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John,
I don’t believe your failure to understand the difference between the possessive apostrophe and a plural can be put down to a typing error.
In answer to your questions, as stated, I’ve worked for a major private sector company for 15 years or so, so yes, I’m in business.
Can I understand and read end of year accounts? Yes. In my time I’ve managed cost accounts with an annual value of several million dollars, and I have a good understanding of end of year figures, balance shets etc.
My qualifications are ‘O’ and ‘A’ levels, dating back to the days when these qualifications had more value than they do now. I might well have gone on to do a degree, but unfortunately I had a bout of serious illness at the time which intervened.
In addition I have a 30 year career in IT, including many years as a computer programmer, so my maths is pretty good thanks.
As for not having a management role, I have been in a management role for the past 10 years or so – I currently have 50 staff.
So, unlike yourself, I’ve answered every question put to me. Ive provided facts, figures and calculations to support my view.
If I contrast that with your contribution, I see no facts, no figures, and instead a blind acceptance of something which cannot possibly be correct, simply because it suits your personal prejudices.
I note that neither you nor Councillor Allen have had the simple good grace to admit that the £26,614 figure was wrong. Since you clearly cannot defend it, it’s hardly surprising you have nothing more to say!
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PETER. 1-0 TO YOU.
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