For a man with no immune system, I’m doing alright.
- Bucket list Ben
Letter: Madness to move training from RAF Cosford
Friday 16th July 2010, 8:59AM BST.
Letter: It has been estimated that the livelihoods of approximately 30,000 people in Shropshire and Staffordshire depend on the continued operation of the Defence Training Centre at RAF Cosford.
It is a well known fact that the decision to move the Defence Training Centre to St Athan in South Wales was made not for “defence” or “economic” purposes but for purely political purposes.
There were Welsh Assembly elections due at the time and the Labour party wan-ted to avoid losing too many seats by being seen to create jobs in Wales. It is therefore amazing that a Conservative-dominated government is intending to carry on with this expensive, unpopular and unnecessary scheme.
Could it be that Armed Forces Minister, Nick Harvey, is hoping that the Lib Dems will become more popular in Wales and make political gains there at the expense of the people in Sh-ropshire and Staffordshire?
The Conservative MPs of Shropshire and Staffordshire are raising hardly a whimper to defend jobs and standards of living in their constituencies.
The Defence School at Cosford at present earns a lot of money for the UK by selling training to members of overseas armed forces. St Athan will not be able to do this to any extent as the highest earner – radar training – is being taken by Germany as part of the closing down of Cosford.
Many of Cosford’s highly trained technical instructors have indicated they are unwilling to move to South Wales. This in itself will create a problem at St Athan.
So this unnecessary, uneconomic and unpopular move will: A. be disastrous for Shropshire and Staffordshire jobs and economies; B. be disastrous for the UK’s export earnings; C. be problematic for defence training at St Athan; D. may earn the Lib Dems a few more votes in Wales.
Denis Allen
Wellington
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Since when have commonsense or even sanity been criteria in government decision making?
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Although I agree with this letter I would just like to clarify one point.
“Many of Cosford’s highly trained technical instructors have indicated they are unwilling to move to South Wales. This in itself will create a problem at St Athan.”
This should read: “many of Cosfords lazy civilian instructors stamped their feet and threw their teddies out of the cot, because they didnt want to move from their cushy lifestyles.”
These instructors actually went on strike for approximately 2-3 days (if I remember correctly), leaving a lot of trainees with no instructors (with the onus then on the trainees to make the time up on their course). The military has plenty of service personnel they can promote as instructors and will do that, so it wouldn’t be as big a problem as some like to make out.
But all that said, Cosford is an ideal location for training it is central to the rest of the country, it is easy to get to (not so easy to leave on a friday lol) and its in one of the best locations in the country.
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I think you will find lazy instructors in RAF uniform as well.
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As a technical instructor both in service and civilian at Halton and Cosford. I recall very few instances where by staff of all creeds could be considered ‘lazy’. It must be remembered that currently most instructors and management are in position because they actually care about military training and the quality of our students. It should also be noted that the civilian training staff undertake their role as a profession whilst the service instructors are posted in, temporarily on instructional duties’.
Therefore consider the following opinion of the professionals with regard to privatisation.
“It would be niaive in the extreme to think that any private company were interested in the defence of the realm or have an interest in anything other than fitness for purpose at minimum cost. They’re in it for the money, the first review for value for money won’t occur for 15 years, there is no fall back plan to wrestle training out of their hands, once gone the ‘in house’ training capability is lost forever”. No, we don’t want to move!
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Jay Pink Floyd once released a song ‘Another Brick in the Wall’ your comments are just the sort of thing that breaks down the Esprit de Corp that should exist between Service and Civilians. Only by working together can you succeed in achieving your communal goals. Always remember you are after all a UT Civvie!!!!
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While I am sure there are lazy instructors, both RAF and Civilian, I’m not sure comments like this are particularly helpful for Cosfords cause.
The strikes were for civilian staff to show their protest at the governments attempts to reduce redundancy payments. I’m sure our military colleagues would be similarly upset if they were told that their “redundancy” payouts on leaving the service were to be reduced?
While it is always regrettable when strike action is taken, please remember that the “lazy” civilian instructors forgo their pay during strike days so are financially hit too.
On the subject of pay, it should also be remembered that our colleagues in the Service are paid on average, £10k a year more than their civilian equivalents – employing civilians in instructional roles provides stability (i.e. not posted out or detached at inopportune moments as happens with RAF instructors), coupled with “value for money”.
I do agree strongly about the comment of Cosford being in an ideal location though – Central, with excellent road and rail links. I have worked in the St Athan area for a short time, and have seen the numerous traffic problems in the South Wales area and consider it is madness to expect the current transport infrastructure to cope with the extra demands that will undoubtedly be placed upon it when the Defence College moves there!
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In reply to ‘Jay’ obviously not an RAF Instructor. Possibly Management!
I have lost count of the times that we, the civilian cadre have had to take up the slack to cover for service instructors who are absent for ‘expeditions’(holidays on the public purse) and other non military excursions. They take 1 and a half hours lunch, we only get an hour in our contract!
They disapear for PT – the lazy large ones get extra PT. They go away to do Air shows, RIAT and Wimbledon. We take the slack.
We don’t have to do this! We don’t dis them as we were once servicemen also and ‘understand’ this is called GOODWILL.
All that said I echo Jay’s comment about Cosfords location and facilities which are above and beyond anything South Wales has to offer.
Also with the current and historic mix of service and civilian trainers we get an ideal mix of new ideas and new technology with a core of staff who remain in post longer to give continuity to the teach. The training at Cosford is acnowleged as world class, why change what is working? And if change must happen how can you ignore the concerns of what are after all your most experienced asset – your instructors (both civilian and service).
To allow the vital training of our brave frontline troups to be at best a political pawn and at worst a simple money saving tool is disgusting. Cameron has said he is behind giving our troops the best equipment – training and knowlege is equipment!
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In response to Jay, RAF Firstly, I know you have your facts incorrect in as much as civilian staff at Cosford have never been on strike over the proposed move to St Athans but over changes to our pay and conditions. Secondly it is the civilian staff who provide the continuity to the training delivered at Cosford not by some ‘Blue Suit’ who comes in for a 2-3 year stint then disappears again. I accept that there may be some ‘lazy’ civilians but there are as many ‘lazy’ Service instructors. I agree that the RAF could provide military instructors but this would take them away from their primary function that of supporting the front line. Lastly may I say to Jay, one day you will be a civilian and will better understand the necessity of industrial action.
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I find it so irritating that some members of staff (both service and civilian) who are unable to grasp the concept of working as part of a team, hence the derogatory comment from Jay RAF. I have worked here at RAF Cosford for the past 11 years and have seen many changes; by the way I am not affraid of change when the benfits are clear to see and are achievable. However it is clear to me (and many of my collegues) that the descion to move defence aeronautical engineering training to St Athan is grossly flawed. What better a location and the infrastructure which exists here at Cosford. Even ‘Metrix’ after their initial visits where astounded at the facilities that exsist and are used constantly. I am not saying its the best there ever is and there is obviously a degree of refurbishment needed which entails expedature but that expediture to revitalsie RAF Cosford would be a fraction of that needed to build new site from the ground up. How many times have we heard of a project of this scale actuallt being completed ‘on budget’. Very, very few; if any. There is always a cost overrun for whatever reason and I do not believe the St Athan build programme will be any different. So why do it. RAF Cosford has the land for rebuild if necessary and has the staff who are skilled and highly professional at what they do. The best value for money option in my oppinion is here at RAF Cosford.
PS As I have already stated that the staff at Cosford are highly professional, both servicemen and their civilian counterparts, there are always the few bad apples in the barrel. RAF Cosford is no exception but what we do is identify those whose performance is below the required standards and deal them in the most appropriate fashion in line with current regulations.
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In response to Jay, RAF. Firstly, I know you have your facts wrong as the civilian staff did not go on strike over the proposed move to St Athan but over changes to our terms and conditions. Secondly, As far as I am aware all trainee courses were coverd by military and non-union personnel and no trainees suffered any detriment. I accept the fact that there may be some ‘lazy’ however, there are no more or less than ‘lazy blue suits’. In addition may I remind you that it the civilians, many of whom are ex-servicemen and women, who provide the continuity for the training being deliverd at Cosford and not the ‘blue suits’ who are posted in for a 2-3 year stint before moving on. Yes the RAF could promote from within to provide the instructors however, this would take the servicemen and women away from their primary task of supporting the front line. In addition it is the intention of DTR to be put in the hands of the private sector which will not require as many military instructors but more civilian instructors dependent on the future throughput. May I remind Jay that he/she will, one day be civilian and hopefully come to realise the necessity for industrial action when all else fails.
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The move of all armed forces to South Wales will probably turn out to be an unmitigated disaster for simple reason that there will be insufficient accommodation.
Where, in these straightened times when budgets are to be cut by 25%, is the money for necessary housing and supporting infrastructure, i.e. schools and medical care going to come from.
Anyone still thinking DTR is workable solution for defence training should take a dose of realism at the earliest opportunity.
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Editor
I read with interest the letter regarding RAF Cosford from Mr Allen and the response from ‘Jay’. Mr Allen makes some good points but I do not entirely agree with his comments regarding the lack of interest shown by Conservative MPs for Shropshire and Staffordshire. I have first hand experience of the tireless work that Mr Mark Pritchard MP has done in defence of retaining Cosford as the prime site for the delivery of aeronautical engineering for the Royal Air Force and the jobs of the civilian workforce. However, I read with incredulity the response to Mr Allen from ‘Jay’. His response is emotive drivel and is based on misunderstandings and, at the worst, falsehoods. The accusation that the/all civilian instructors are lazy is very far from the truth – some individuals may be but that can also apply to some of our RAF colleagues. What planet is this individual on? The Defence College of Aeronautical Engineering is renowned for the quality of its training. This reputation has been built up over the years and has relied upon both Service and civilian personnel working as a team to deliver top class training to RAF and overseas students. It is very unfortunate that Jay seems not to be part of the Team.
Civilians have the right to go on strike following a ballot of Union members and the strength of antagonism towards the Defence Training Review (DTR) and the potential job losses may have influenced the difficult decision to take strike action. However, the strike was about illegal changes to the Civil Service Compensation Scheme and not about any move to S Wales. The claim was subsequently upheld by the High Court.
Jay should be thankful that as a Serviceman/woman his/her job is relatively ‘safe’ although I am aware that there is going to be a drawdown in the numbers of personnel within the RAF. This leads me to the absolutely absurd comments made by Jay relating to trainees being expected to make up the time on their own. In the majority of cases contingency plans would have been in place to cover for civilian instructors on strike to avoid students losing training time. Undoubtedly, many RAF Instructors would have ‘filled in’ for striking civilians to avoid losing training time. Additionally, Jay’s premise that Service personnel could be ‘promoted’ to instructors makes scant sense for a number of reasons; there is an insufficiently large pool of potential instructors out there in the wider RAF; as a result who would fill the gaps left by Service personnel taking up civilian posts?; he has failed to appreciate the Employment Law issues of what he suggests and finally, with DTR approaching the Service v Civilian workforce ratio will change in favour of civilians.
I am always glad to read constructive and well ‘thought out’ letters in your Newspaper but I am dismayed when individuals such as ‘Jay’ take the opportunity to use it for an unsubstantiated and emotive rant. Incidentally, I am not an Instructor but a Lecturer in a different Union who is prepared to defend his Instructor colleagues’ reputations and their right to strike.
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Used to work there and was disgusted by the lack of work undertaken by Instructors. Many are living out a cushy exsistance with their saleries inflated by ex-service pensions. Many ex-service man employed as civi instructors are now left wing trade unionists that do very little instructing and use every chance they get to decry their militry counterparts. Yes you are paid about 10 grand less but then you don’t have to go on the front line so please don’t use that comparison. If your lot is so bad why don’t you do what I did, give your notice in and get a job teaching elsewhere outside of the MoD. The pay is not much better but the job is far more rewarding. On the other hand do you know where you are well off and know that if you are paid as an instructor you will be expected to spend the majority of your time instructing.
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sadly once this coalition has run it’s course i doubt whether more than 6 lib dem mp’s will be elected. nick clegg has marched his troops into the valley of death. come on local mp’s what are you doing to lobby the mod. about cosford
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Well that will be Mark Prichard the local MP for Cosford who is a Tory, gone all silent now they are in Power, i wonder why.
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Guys and Gals
Stop slagging each other off and work as a team.
This government and the higher echelons of the MOD are selling us all down the river with this one, service and civilian alike.
Handing training over to a 3rd party – (like it or not civilian trainers at Cosford are simply MOD employees just like the RAF, Navy and Army trainers!) is simply asking for down graded training standards.
We should put our combined energy into fighting this PPP as it will eventualy lead to holes in the ground!!
Jay – it is not only civilian instructors who will lose out – there will be many less RAF instructors also.
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This so called cushy number we are supposed to be on, is where I ( The Civilian, Ex Service 22 years ) CHOOSE to live with my family and settle down. The opportunity to continue my job as an instructor at Cosford is a fortunate one which I am proud to do. A career which I do to the best of my abilities. Not every one enjoys their job what ever it is. I do and get a lot of satisfaction seeing students pass out to become the RAF`s futute tradsmen and women. Thats from a civilian!!!!!! My previous career gives me the drive to encourage ETHOS within the service. Yes I dont do detachments or extra duties but I have done that as a serviceman. Now I have moved on. All service personel will also move on and become a CIVVIE!!! Dont forget that!! I have had 13 postings, plus many other detachments, Been there done that, got the t-shirt.
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yeah but the public sector is pointless cut it all and there will loads of private sector to replace it so says tories hahahahahaha idiots this shows we need a public sector
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In response to the inflammatory outburst by Jay RAF. I am a specialist Instructional Officer at DCAE Cosford. I can assure readers that most of my colleagues are very hard working, determined and caring people who conscientiously strive to train students at Cosford to the very high standards required by the armed services. We teach twelve months of the year with no mid-term or summer breaks and in consequence have more student contact hours than college lecturers and school teachers.
In trying to understand this outburst I have come to the conclusion that ‘Jay’ must be a pseudonym for a disgruntled ex-serviceman/woman who has been refused employment as an MoD instructor upon leaving the service or an MoD employee who has personal issues with a civilian counterpart. It is unlikely that an RAF serviceman/woman would behave in such a manner and it is much less likely that an RAF Officer would be so cowardly as to attack their colleagues with such venom without having the courage to use their name and rank.
I hope that my above understanding is correct, because if it is not, then this is indeed a sad day for the RAF.
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Well said Rowan.
Now lets get back to slagging of DTR and fighting to keep Cosford.
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I agree with Current of Cosford. I too am a Civilian Instructor (Ex RAF) and served for 23 years in the Service. Did all the detachments and “Front Line” duties, often putting the Service first. 13 years ago I retired from the RAF an decided to put my family first for a change. It was not easy to become a civilian instructor, taking an initial 6K a year drop in pay, despite the “fat” pension from the RAF and only now am beginning to feel comfortable on my MOD pay, having finished my mortgage. I take great pride in teaching the students at Cosford, both in a Blue Suit and out of it (I have been an Instructor here since 1986), so I will work tirelessly to ensure that they have the best training that my experience can give them. I think that Jay needs to wisen up and realise that Service and Civilans working together is all about give and take. We will cover them whilst they play sport for the RAF or when they have to do “Out of Area” detachments whether this be to the Front Line or otherwise. This means that they may have to cover us when we are on Strike (against pay and pensions), which has been 3 times in the 13 years that I have been a Civilian.
No I don’t want to move to St Athan, as many others don’t, not only for my families sake, but the financial penalty that the move would impose. Taking out another mortgage to cover the price difference in housing is not on my list of priorities. Anyway, choosing to move or not is a personal choice and nothing to do with being a lazy Civilian.
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Thank you to Mr Allen for his supportive letter in which he states that DTR has always been politically driven and not as were are supposed to believe a Defence Value for Money project.
I and many of my colleagues strongly believe this to be the case.In 1995-96 in a Value for Money exercise Support Services here at RAF Cosford were put out to tender and as Public Sector workers we were afforded the opportunity to submit an in-house bid along side interested private companies. With the absolute full support of senior Civilian and Service management we were successful in winning the contract. We proved that with improvemnt and changes made to our working procedures we could provide value for money and maintain a quality service.
How times have changed. When DTR was announced we, as Public Sector workers, were not permitted to submit what would undoubtedly have been a competetive in- house bid. There was no Service management support and it was felt that Senior management at the time were quite happy to see us sold down the river.
It appears that as with past and present large MoD projects the danger now is that those in the postion of taking DTR forward are trying desperately to carry on regardless, trying to complete to reduced Treasury funds available rather than to the actual funds required to deliver the project to the standard as was first intended.
This mind set will undoubtedly lead to another bodged multi-million pound contract that favours the contractor and not the customer. Those responsible will disappear off into the sunset never to be seen again. Who, other than the MoD would look to set a contract for 25 years in these unsettled times?
Make no mistake the majority of Cosford staff are loyal,dedicated and committed to giving of their best whatever their role.
We now have a management statement that encorages us to ‘give the new Defence Training College’a hard act to follow;-When as an ‘act’ you are top of the bill, performing well, have the desire to improve and are pleasing the audience it is highly likely that you would not willingly want to leave the stage to make way for an act that would fail an X Factor audition.
It goes on to say ‘when the time comes to hand over the baton to Metrix’ :- When I was at School (some time ago) I learnt that in athletics you could be the best runner in the County but despite taking the lead in a relay race when you pass the baton to the next person if they drop it the whole team loses.
The MoD is heading towards a half a Billion pound budget deficit -If this government is serious about getting this country back on it’s feet and we are to believe that DTR will be looked at seriousley in the SDR surely those making the decision on the future of DTR can see what we can see and realise it will be an extortionately costly disaster.
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Hopefully now that Jay has been corrected that civilian instructors at Cosford were on strike as part of a national protest at changes being made to the civil service compensation scheme he will now remember the massive sums of money, often in the region of £90,000 paid out in redundancy packages to RAF personnel not that many years ago. I wonder if changes to those arrangements would have been welcomed as we are now expected to do so with changes that affect civil servants. Incidentally The RAF redundancy payouts were 3-4 times what are being proposed for civil servants, funny how you don’t see that reported on in the press!
On a more serious note what of the damage done to the economy of this area, how many thousands of people will be adversely affected by this politically driven, costly and unnecessary move to South Wales. When the 2nd Permanent under Secretary for defence was recently asked this question at Cosford, her response was simply along the lines of …the economic map of this area will be different in five years anyway? As for the 13.5 Billion cost of this PFI the public should be asking one question only…How many of these types of projects have come in on budget and not gone grossly over budget? The answer is, very few! And who pays…We do, the tax payer, just something else that that is kept away from the public eye and doesn’t seem to get many column inches in the mainstream press.
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Thank you to Mr Allen for his supportive letter in which he states that DTR has always been politically driven and not as we are supposed to believe as a Defence Value for Money project.
I and many of my colleagues also believe this to be the case.
In 1995-96 in a Defence Value for Money exercise the Support Services here at RAF Cosford were put out to tender. As Public Sector workers we were afforded the opportunity to submit an in-house bid alongside private companies to secure this contract. With the absolute full support of Senior Civilian and Service management we were successful in securing the contract, proving we could with improvement and change provide Best Value for Money and maintain a quality service.
How times have changed. When DTR was first announced we as Public Sector workers were not permitted to submit what would have undoubtedly been a creditable highly competetive in-house bid. There was no management support – it appeared that Senior Management at the time were quite happy to sell us down the river.
As with past and present large MoD projects the danger now is that those in a position of taking this project forward are trying desperately to carry on regardless – they are trying to complete so as to reduced Treasury funding on offer rather than to the funding actually required.
Applying this mind-set will lead to another botched multi billion pound MoD contract that favours the Contractor and not the customer. Those responsible will as usual disappear off into the sunset never to be seen again. Who, other than the MoD, would set a contract for 25 years in these unsettled times?
We have a Cosford management statement now that encourages us to ‘give the new Defence Training College a hard act to follow’;-When as an ‘act’ you are top of the bill, performing well, keen to improve and pleasing the audience it is highly unlikley that you would willingly want to leave the stage to make way for an act that would not pass an X-Factor audition. The statement goes on to say: ‘when the time comes to smoothly pass the baton to Metrix’:-When I was at school (some years ago) I learnt in athletics that you could be the best runner in the County but when you have the lead in the Relay race and pass the baton on to the next person if they drop it the whole team loses.
The MoD are heading for a half a Billion pound deficit. If this government is serious about helping this country back on its feet and we are to believe that DTR is not a done deal and that it will be seriously reviewed during SDR, surely those making the decision on the future of DTR can see what we can see? DTR will be an astronomical disaster both for tri-service Aeronautical Engineering training and the economy.
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Mmmm, its definately political and that also drove the major servicing from St Atahn to Marham, Cottesmore/Wittering and now Coningsby for the Typhoon. As an ex-instructor at Cosford there were lazy individuals in both dress codes, but there were some very very good ones also that ensured the bad were outnumbered. As an ex-trainee I would say that it might shut the local population of Albrighton up from complaining about all the serviceman drinking and the related high jinks that ensued. The local lads might get a bit more of a chance to keep the local girls and not loose them to an infinately more interesting life somewhere else in the country witht heir new partners – good secure jobs, better pay, fitter, more intelligent, more interesting, more self assured.
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With all the drivel from the civilian instructors above – seems like they have too much time on their hands! Roll on the move to South Wales and sack the lot of them and leave it to the fine Services!
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