Muhammed,

while the teachings of the religion, (or should I say certain sects within the religion), may allow for the rights you describe above I think you miss the point of PB Johnston’s letter and the majority view of people interested in the politics of the world.

While some sects may enshrine the rights afforded women you describe I am unaware of a single state defined as “muslim” that follows through with these guarantees: even Turkey, supposedly set to join the EU, offers no such legislation in their country so while your understanding of teachings of scriptures is accurate, (although open to differing interpretations by differing sects), the reality when the religious leaders seize power is nothing like the theory – although it has to be said the same is, (or at least was), rampant throughout the last millenium when applied to christianity… no one could say the horrors of the inquisition, witch trials and the brutal subjucation of the indigenous religions throughout Europe carried out by the Catholic Church in the name of Jesus bore any resemblence to the teachings of the bible…

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Well said Mr Azfar.

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In the past Christianity has been used by the state in this country in any way which suited it as an instrument of control, regardless of the teachings in the Bible. Equally, the way Islam is practiced by some devotees actually has more to do with Arabic / Asian culture rather than conforming to anything written in the Qur’an. As Marx said, “religion is the opiate of the masses”.

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It is so easy for the issues to be confused and misrepresented. Many in this country have preconceived ideas regarding Islam and Muslims. Many of those ideas are based on biased and prejudiced press reporting or the misleading thoughts of political groups. Many also mistake culture for religion. The Wahabi interpretation of Islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia is not the way of the majority of Muslims. The Saudi’s and some other countries also have severe cultural traditions regarding women, crime and punishment that we in the west object to. In Pakistan the treatment of women varies greatly from fairly liberal inclusiveness in the larger cities, to more oppressive cultural traditions in the tribal territories. There are actually very few truly Islamic states in which religion forms part of the constitution. Saudi Arabia and Iran certainly are; but others merely have Islam as the majority religion. Turkey is actually secular and Ataturk insisted that religion and the state should be separate. That aspect of the constitution is something the Turks passionately adhere to. If we all take a little time to learn we may also develop understanding and tolerance.

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Having travelled extensively in a number of Muslim countries including being in Aden (now Yemen) in it’s colonial days, what Mr Azfar say’s is what many of the muslim community would like us to believe. They are not supported by the facts, women in Islam are treated little better than chattels and serfs. There are many examples of the mistreatment of muslim women in traditional societies/ families but just let’s choose a few :-
(a) forced female genital mutilation – still occurs in this country and is almost the norm in Islamic countries abroad.
(b) forced marriages, again regularly occurs here and again is the norm overseas.
(c) female education, utterly banned in extreme Islamist societies. Banned still in those parts of Afghanistan under Taliban control.
(d) female divorce rights, none existent without husbands agreement.
(e) “honour” killings, carried out where the female, not the male brings her husband, family or ? into alleged disrepute. Many, many examples in this country and a way of life in many Islamist countries.
(f) rights of husband to beat and chastise their wives and then the right of husbands to rape their wives, (just written into law in Afghanistan). The right of husbands to have child brides/wives etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

And so it goes on, where do you want it to stop. And then Mr. Azfar talks about treating women “with respect and kindness”. Mr Azfar, you are in a highly developed, intelligent western democracy where 99.9%r of the people are educated. Please do not treat or think of us as naive, gullible people who do not know what they see in Islam, again, is it kindness and respect when an adulterous woman is bound, gagged and stoned to death in from of thousands at a packed football stadium.
What I find so objectionable though about the war against Iraq and Saddam Hussein is that Blair went to war against the most advanced and socially developed state in the Muslim world. Women had achieved far more under Saddam and his Baath party than any other Middle east country. They were in all the professions, many were highly educated, indeed some held ministerial appointments, there were Doctors, Professors and all the positions of a rapidly developing nation and then Blair and Bush had to send it crashing back to the dark ages where anarchy rules and women are once again, treated little better than beasts of burden.
As for Simon above, don’t be naive and for Mariam, from your name you could well have some deeper knowledge of the subject so why don’t you expand on it.

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Rights and respect for women?

Like being stoned to death for having the temerity to be raped!

As Jane says “dressing women up like letter boxes” is hardly showing respect for women.

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Again and again there is this confusion between culture and religion. Female genital mutilation – an awful practice – is primarily sub Saharan and is practised by Muslims, Christians and others. Subjugation, honour killings etc are also mainly cultural not religious. Stoning people to death is still recommended in the bible. Some interpretations of Sharia law (particulalry Wahabiist) are abhorrent to most of us but are not widely practiced in the majority of countries where Islam is the main religion. Like you Stuart I have also travelled extensively to many “Muslim” countries. I have many friends and associates (male and female; single and married) who are Muslim. I also occasionally read the Qu’ran although as an atheist it means as little to me as the bible. Peter – your comments as always are considered and thoughtful. I suspect however, that you are banging your head against a solid wall.

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Each to their own

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Peter said:
“The irony is that the rhetoric of hatred and prejudice spouted by these people actually fuels the extreme fringes of religions”

Peter, it’s the Nu Labour regime’s biased foreiegn policies and two illegal wars (in which thousands of innocent muslim civilians have died) that fuels Islamic fundamentalism.

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Well said Nelson #17

We forget what an inept and discusting disaster the New Labour project has been!

We will suffer for generations

Good old Bliar and Clown

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Nelson,

I don’t doubt that the slavish following of the US’s simplistic foreign policies by the UK has helped to encourage extremism within the fringes of Islam, just as the Israeli attack on Gaza will have made the world a less safe place for all of us, and only served to inflame the situation.

I heard a Yemeni government spokesman on the radio yesterday, talking about the possibility of military ‘support’ being offered to Yemen in order to counter the Al-Quaeda activity there. He pointed out that the best way to undermine support for Al-Quaeda was to address the issues of injustice arising from poverty and poor education – I think he hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately organisations such as Al-Quaeda will always benefit from such a sense of injustice – in the end that injustice is the best recruiting sergeant they have.

But isn’t it also the case that this applies to extremist organisations the world over? In the 1930s the Nazis rose against a background of cynical exploitation of economic disarray and poverty. Their simplistic ‘let’s blame the foreigners’ approach led to the horrors of WW2. Whilst I understand that the BNP leadership denies that such horrors took place, surely the parallel is there for all to see?

I find such things as the wearing of the burka in this country to be challenging, and I have concerns that it may, in some instances, be opporessive to women – but as long as we educate people that in this country they are entirely at liberty to dress as they wish, then that’s fine by me – it boils down to an individual decision. It might be just as oppressive in some instances to ban it!

As a previous correspondent pointed out, it’s a cultural rather than a religious issue.

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