People power wins speed camera fight
Saturday 7th November 2009, 11:30AM GMT.
Mobile speed cameras are to be used on four Shropshire roads notorious for speeding drivers – thanks to people power.
The West Mercia Safer Roads Partnership has responded to complaints by residents that cameras only go up after people have been killed. It is one of the first authorities in the country to introduce “Community Concern” sites.
Cameras will be sited on the A483 in Pant, near Oswestry, where two thirds of all drivers exceed the 30mph speed limit, from November 23.
Drivers will also be clocked on Hadley Park Road in Telford, where youngster Tom Rowley suffered serious injuries after being knocked down earlier this year, from December.
Figures from the Safer Roads Partnership revealed more than half of drivers were caught speeding in Hadley Park Road while it was being monitored.
Two other sites, the A41 Chetwynd Firs and Woodcote and the B4176 coming into Telford, will also be monitored in the new year by mobile cameras.
Partnership performance analyst Tom Pooler said the group’s board had decided to relax strict criteria which meant someone had to be killed before a site would be considered for a camera.
He said: “These are sites where the community has expressed concerns about the speed of vehicles travelling along the roads.
“They have asked for action to be taken, either by writing directly to us or by talking to police officers at local Pact meetings.
“It is a common complaint from people that they feel they have to wait until somebody gets killed before anything is done and we are trying to help people where we can.”
Mr Pooler said the four sites would be monitored for six months. He added: “We hope that the introduction of these cameras will act as a deterrent and force drivers into changing their ways – and if speeds drop over the six months then great.
“If not we can move it on another stage and look at enforcement by putting in fixed cameras.”
The A41 was highlighted by former Telford & Wrekin coroner Malcolm Gwynne in September, who asked Telford & Wrekin Council to consider safety measures following a string of accidents and deaths.
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this is a big brother tax from labour and the EU
when we get in we will ban speed cameras and make it easier for the motorist to get around
down with brown and the tax raising yellow spies
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“People power”.
Do these people not realise that they have approached a “road safety” organisation that can tackle a problem that causes just 2% of road deaths in this country? Because DfT figures show us that this is the percentage of deaths caused by exceeding a speed limit.
Speed cameras are more than useless, as is the continual obsession with lowering speed limits.
The A4640 near me has recently been lumbered with a new 50 limit, despite, in the three years to December 2008, there were just 8 accidents where there was a serious injury and even in these accidents exceeding the speed limit was NOT the primary CAUSATIVE factor!
Let me tell you. In the 20,000+ miles I drive every year on A / B roads and motorways, speeding is one of the least dangerous things I see.
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So the anti motorist fanatics were asked if they would like speed cameras in these roads and that is what passes for democracy in the UK nowadays.
Why not ask the kids at schools if they would like free ice creams every half hour.
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Good! Those that complain are obviously those that speed.
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I hope they have enough cameras to be placed on every street and road in Telford
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Well done to the community campaigners.
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I Totally agree with winja #2.
I hgve driven well 0ver 880,000 miles in 44 years, and still, like winja clock up 20,000 miles per year.
The fact is – ask any experienced, competent driver (and I’ve asked more than few, advanced motorists, police drivers etc) about hazards on the roads, and “speeding” motorists are very low on this list. There are far many more issues than “speeding” – but cameras won’t detect them!
Lets just think logically about this for one moment.
Take a road with a 30mph limit.
If you draw a graph of “risk” against “speed”, it doesn;t suddenly “shoot up into the stratosphere at 31 mph!
Yet a camera “perceives” a driver doing 29 Mph as “safe”, yet another at say 32-33 Mph as “unsafe” (assuming that the camera is set to that limit.
So the simplistic answer to all this is to reduce the speed limit to zero – then there cannot be any accidents. A daft idea maybe –
But, not that far removed from the placement of cameras that do nothing except measure speed of vehicles against an abritrary limit.
An NO – this DOESN’T mean I’m condoning “speeding” –
WHAT it DOES means is taking ALL the relevant factors into consideration – and THEN driving at an APPROPRIATE speed, which might be at times WELL BELOW the posted limit!!!
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´Hallo´Huw, posting from Germany and logged on to see if Al Gore latest gaff (ban pets, they add to global warming)had reached the UK, and what do I find? More drivel about speed limits.
Having a great time on some of the unlimited Autobahns.
My German pal still can´t understand why we paint our cameras bright yellow – over here they are grey and there is no warning sign. Its very hard to explain to the Bosche our sense of fair play, perhaps if they played cricket they might have a better idea.
Speed does not kill, stupidity does.
Auf Wiedersehen.
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Surely as the majority of accidents are caused by the elderly. Would’nt it be a better idea to force the over 40′s to resit the driving test every 5 years that way we will get all the dangerous drivers off the road and have no need for speed camera’s.
On the same point the under 25′s should have a speed restricter fitted to cars restricting them to 30mph on roads until they pass the advanced driving test they will not be allowed on motorways or dual roads.
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“But officer, the speed camera didn’t flash me, so I know I was only doing 30mph. So the accident couldn’t have been my fault!”
Driving in fog, on ice, or in torrential rain… but it’s OK, as I was only doing 30!
Speed is not always the only factor, it is rarely the sole factor.
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People Power – are these the same pedestrians who frequently jay walk across the road as slow as you like without a care in the world slowing the traffic down yet not using the pedastrian crossing usually situated a couple of yards up which then turns red after passing said pedestrian causing traffic to stop twice within a short distance which causes bumper prangs and hikes up our insurance costs?
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listen to the people we dont want spies in the skies we want freedome to drive, where ever and when ever we like, this is just to cash in, nothing will improve here in terms of safety, its an outrage its been allowed
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Yes, John Smith.
I do complain, and I do exceed speed limits. Much like – at a guess – 90% of the 33 million drivers using the roads every day. But here is the rub, I’m willing (if this was a proper discussion forum) to scan my licence as a pdf and post the image for all to see the lack of points on it, for it has been unsullied since 1987.
See, the major – PRIMARY – factor in road deaths in this country is “looked, but failed to see” (check out the official DfT stats on this), but of course this is difficult to spot; difficult for a camera to assimilate; not “black & white”. Setting a clear baseline, however, and scanning whether a driver goes above such a baseline IS easily scanned and assimilated. Regardless of whether the transgression is dangerous or not.
“Speed kills”. Goebbels would have liked this message as he coined the phrase, ‘Tell the people a lie. Keep it simple. Repeat it often enough, and they will in time believe it to be true’.
And, whether one likes the fact or not, speed cameras have done absolutely nothing since 1993 to improve safety or reduce deaths on our roads. The sooner people like these “campaigners” wake up to this fact, then sooner road deaths will start to fall in the manner they did up to the early 90′s.
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Y Mab, it’s so obvious that you either don’t drive or don’t drive far…get a life!
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more eu rules on health and safety ruining our lives and burdening our businesses
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YET again….
As I said last time ..
EVERYTIME there is an article about speed or speed cameras there is a comparaitvely big response.
And..
YET again we see little support for this .. and YET AGAIN …those that DO post replies in support don’t base their aguments on any intelligent responses, but resort to inane comments like:
* It’s the elderely that cause accidents (#9)
* Good ! it must be the speeders that are complaining (#4)
* Let’s hope there are enough cameras for every street (#5)
* Well done to the campaigners (#6)
Please – just for ONCE can we have a reasoned, logical reply from these so-called campaigners/supports as to WHY they believe so strongly that cameras will make a difference?
It seems interesting to me that every single decent intelligent logical reply to the issues of “speeding” are those wtriiten by experienced motorists whose long experience shows otherwise -which many contributors also point out are confirmed by national statistics.
So ..
We await the intelleigent, reasoned replies in support please!
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My friend was killed by a speeding motorist. The person was driving too fast and misjudged a corner. My friend could have been killed by someone committing various traffic offenses as winja suggests, but the fact is my friend was killed by someone like winja.
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There does seem to be alot of comments on here about the success or not of speed cameras. Could anyone who doesnt believe they work, please tell me an actual way to reduce accidents that will work.
Please dont come out with, people should be safer drivers etc. I would like some action that will actually work. Thanks
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To all those saying that speed doesn’t make a difference, try walking a long a road with your children and dog, while cars go passed driving over the speed limit. Our road has had the limit reduced from 60 to 30 and it has made such a difference to all our lives. For a start it’s not so noisy. It’s easier to get off and on our drive. Walking along to school during rush hour is much safer. Most people stick to the limit, but you get the odd idiot who thinks they can just motor through our village at 60 still. We live in a very busy village, with two schools, i would welcome a camera here any day.
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Hi Chris.
Whilst it it very sad that someone you know was killed – I think it is unfair and unreasonable to compare ( to winja) as you say:
“The person was driving too fast and misjudged a corner.” and ..
“but the fact is my friend was killed by someone like winja.”
NOW – what Winja is saying is that anyone who drives a lot will know that VERY few people can claim to ALWAYS drive within the limit.
That is a fact.
How often has ANYONE reading this driven at say 35 odd miles an hour in a 30 zone for example – COME ON – BE HONEST !!
Anyone who drives a lot will know that traffic OFTEN goes “marginally” above limits in a 30/40/50/60/NSL zones etc.
BUT
People like winja who assert that:
“most people” drive (slightly – I would suggest) above the speed limit from time to time ” –
IS
A “million” miles away from what you are saying:
“A speeding motorist who misjudges a corner”
The fact is – to be “speeding” to the extent that you misjudge a corner” must mean that either you weren’t taking any notice of the road ahead – in which case was it REALLY speed to blame?? – or,
Was it that the vehicle in question was FAR exceeding an “appropriate” speed given ALL the conditions at the time? – Never mind any speed limit!
Fact is – you can “misjudge a corner” at any speed!! – especially if you aren’t driving with full care and attention-which I suspect was very likely in this case
We NEED to define the word “speeding”
A camera defines “speeding” as “exceeding an arbitrary* limit by a predefined margin” ” (*arbitrary becuase it (the camera) takes no account of the road conditions AT THE TIME – which might mean that speeds ACTUALLY BELOW the posted limit might be unsafe!)
I would define “speeding” as someone who drives at a speed that is NOT appropriate for the road conditions at the time.
There is a world of difference.
Again I think it is very sad that someone got killed -but I do think we need to keep a balanced view of this.
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Chris T,
If what you say is true then that was very unfortunate but in fact the driver in question was committing other offences apart from “exceeding a speed limit”. How far above the speed limit was he? How would a speed camera have saved your friend?
Speed cameras do not catch “dangerous driving” or “careless driving” offences.
Driving at an in appropriate speed for the road and conditions killed your friend but no speed camera would stop that.
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Interesting the way statistics are bandied about and as askeric says the usual inane comments. If you look at the statistics on the DFT website you will see that whilst causes such as “looked, but failed to see” are listed at the top, an accident can have more than one contributory factor allocated to it. It therefore isn’t the Primary factor it is the one that occurs most on the reports. (i.e. it could be a secondary factor in a higher numebr of accidents). If you then look at the other factors speeding occurs quite highly. But this has to be taken with the caveats on other pages that this is following an investigation where not all of the facts are known which does tend to reduce the reliability of the statistics some what.
What amazes me are the number of people who say they are expert drivers and can judge the appropriate speed for the conditions. Whilst you all will have had additional training to be able to do that (you have haven’t you?) the majority of drivers on there road haven’t and that is one of the reasons why speed limits are in place.
It also shows how selfish and arrogant some drivers are – not good qualities to have when driving . As the article suggests speeding through villages is a danger – I don’t want people blasting through my village posing a danger not just to themselves but to me and my family and friends as well. Complete lack of respect for other people – if speed cameras are the only way to stop that then needs must.
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No, Chris.
Before I hit the “Report Abuse” button (for that is what I would class your comment), your friend was NOT killed by someone like me.
Your friend was killed by someone who did not bother to learn about “limit points”, or “raising your vision”, or “being able to stop in the distance one can see to be clear”. All of which are basic, introductory lessons by the Institute of Advanced Motorists and are simple beyond words to learn. If one cannot be bothered to further their driving skills beyond the DSA test, either by reading freely available material from advanced driving groups, joining them, or just browsing on-line on driving fora, then they – for me – forfeit the right to preach to more proficient and experienced drivers what is right and proper when it comes to safe driving on the roads.
I WANT safer roads in this bloody country. As I alluded to previously, I see too much rubbish driving on the roads every day; on motorways, on A roads, on B roads, on urban roads and no amount of bloody cameras will make a blind bit of difference. The only thing that will make a difference is more traffic cops on the roads catching the REALLY crap drivers, not those doing 42 in a 40.
BTW, thanks for your support eric.
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Troy,
Not everyone needs to attend special courses to learn how to drive appropriately to the conditions or your own abilities. It is something that will be attained with experience not just by expensive courses. The problem is that there are MANY inexperienced drivers on the roads as you point out and there are many drivers on the roads which do not care about their driving and wish to improve. However a speed limit is exactly that a LIMIT. It is not a target for inexperienced drivers to aim at. I t should be set at a sensible level that the majority of experienced drivers feel is a safe limit (this is where mean speeds and the 85percentile sttings originate from). Unfortunately limits are being dropped to cater for the inexperienced minority NOT the 85% of decent drivers on the road. This in turn leads to frustration amongst experienced drivers and lack of respect for artificially lowererd limits which are often set at the whim of people who know nothing about road safety, which is why police forces across the country are objecting more and more to some of the ridiculously low speed limits cropping up everywhere. Unfortunately the true road safety experts, the police, are being ignored when local councillors who know much less about road safety are getting listened to.
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Thankyou troy tempest.
So I make inane comments do I ?
Thankyou for your observations, but I will rely on my 44 years experience and close on 1,000,000 miles travelled thanks.
Yes – some of us drivers – contrary to what you might think – and seem unwilling to accept – ARE very skilled AND experienced
And there is NO substitute for experience !
AND, ….. Troy Tempest PLEASE NOTE that I have ACTUALLY said that speeds even BELOW the posted limit may be unsafe at times!
So … please READ MY POSTS !!
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Hi Troy -
Apologies !!
Where you said:
“Interesting the way statistics are bandied about and as askeric says the usual inane comments”
I read that wrong the first time – thinking that it was me you were referring to as making the inane comments!
again … aplologies!!
Regards
Askeric dotcom
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Brian makes a very good point about 85th percentile speeds.
For everyone’s information, there is a stretch of road near where I live that is currently single carriageway NSL (i.e. 60mph). The council has recently measured speeds along this stretch, and the 85th percentile speed is 54mph (info received through a Freedom of Information request). Which leads me to suggest that 99.9% of drivers are either at, or below, the 60mph limit.
However.
Despite the fact that – in the last 6 years – I know not of ANY serious accident on that road, it is now proposed to reduce the speed limit to 50mph.
So. When this happens, at least 80% of (currently) law abiding drivers will – for no reason whatsoever – become law breakers overnight. I have not seen, in the last 6 years, any scamera vans on that stretch of road but I bet you when the limit is lowered, they’ll be patrolling it like vultures.
As I said. Lower speed limits, and speed cameras table NOTHING to improve road safety. Nothing.
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The following results of a poll by Admiral Insurance makes interesting reading.
If 82% of drivers are exceeding the speed limits being introduced lately, does this not suggest that the majority of speed limits are set TOO LOW….Or are the majority of drivers, thoughtless, inconsiderate maniacs…..?
I WONDER?
“Admiral Poll wrote:SPEEDING ‘ROUTINE FOR MAJORITY OF DRIVERS’
By Peter Woodman, Press Association Transport Correspondent
More than four in five motorists break speed limits, a survey today showed.
As many as 82% of drivers admitted to sometimes or frequently exceeding the
limit, the poll by YouGov and insurance company Admiral found.
For male drivers, the figure was as high as 86%, while 78% of women motorists
owned up to speeding.
Based on responses from 3,280 drivers, the poll also revealed:
:: Only 27% think speed cameras improve road safety;
:: Just 18% reckon more speed cameras should be installed;
:: 14% have been caught speeding in the last year;
:: 30% say the speed limit should be 20mph on residential streets;
:: 71% think the speed limit should be 80mph or higher on motorways.
People in Yorkshire were the biggest supporters of speed cameras, while those
in north-east England disliked the cameras the most.
Admiral managing director Sue Longhorn said: “I’m surprised so many motorists
admit to speeding. Our research suggests it’s not just commonplace, but routine
for the vast majority of drivers. What’s not surprising is the percentage that
get caught speeding with so many breaking the speed limit.
“Speeding is such an emotive issue for motorists, and one area where they feel
the Government interferes too much. Our research illustrates just how disliked
speed cameras are and how suspicious motorists are about the motives of police
forces who install them. It would seem that most people think enough is
enough.”
She went on: “Many councils are introducing 20mph speed limits in more
residential areas and this is already commonplace near schools. Our research
suggests this might not be such a popular move, but in order to keep motorists
onside, maybe they should consider raising the speed limit on motorways to 80mph
when conditions are good.”
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