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Letter: Real agents of intolerance
Friday 30th October 2009, 9:22AM GMT.
Letter: At the risk of being called a bigot or an Islamophobe, I am dismayed that at least three London councils have placed bans on singing hymns to worship God. Such councils are the real Islamophobes.
As a Christian in a multicultural society, I feel that it is wrong to place such a noise abatement order on our churches, particularly when the complaints come from Muslims. It is about time that someone spoke out about the origins of our ethnicity, or am I just a voice of one crying in the wilderness?
Britain, particularly England, embraced Christianity long before Islam was born and even before the Romans brought it into Britain through St Augustine in 597 A.D.
What is not widely acknowledged is that Christianity was brought to these shores by Joseph of Arimathea in 37 A.D. which is only four years after Jesus died. Joseph was a direct, living, link to Jesus —you can’t get much closer than that!
I feel that it is a basic human right to worship whichever God you choose to, after all God invites us to “Choose this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15). As such, it should be unhindered by other faiths. It should be noted that in Islamic countries such as Indonesia, Iran and Saudi Arabia to name but a few, you are totally forbidden to hold public services of worship and, if caught, Christians can be thrown into prison for very long periods of time. So much for tolerance!
What are they afraid of? People who know Christ have nothing to fear – it is really those who do not know him. If only the councils would have the backbone to say “I’m sorry but this is a Christian country first and foremost and you have the freedom to worship your god in the same way that they worship theirs.”
Before Christ came, many people were walking in darkness. Jesus said: “I am the light of the world.”. (John 8:12) and also; “I am The Way, the Truth and the Life.” (John 14:6) It would appear that the dark ages are being revisited!
Trevor Mytton
Cross Houses
Shrewsbury
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no London Councils have imposed such a ban.
1 London council has issued a noise notice against one church because of the very amplified music and drums.
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Ah, what a surprise… a crazily dis-jointed letter from a christian, spouting outdated, archaic fairy-stories. You can quote scripture all you like… it’s just a book mate.
How exactly are London Council exhibiting Islamaphobia with their non-existent ban? Try reading something other than the bible or the Daily Mail and you might find you’re not so disappointed at the state of society.
Btw, there’s no proof that Joseph of Arimathea was even an historical figure, let alone proof that he visited Britain.
Why is the Shropshire Star giving a platform to this kind of rubbish? If I want to get preached at, I can go and listen to the crazy man that harrasses passers-by in Wolverhampton town centre.
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With the greatest respect can I suggest that the respondent R. Barrington Black takes the time to read the report in the following Telegraph link at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6294591/church-has-its-hymns-silenced-by-council-ban.html, the point is this has not just happened to one long established Church(in fact this could well be the tip of the iceberg)every religion should have freedom to worship in peace otherwise it could be viewed as discrimination, one would hope that in this great country of ours freedom of worship would apply equally to all faiths
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Well we live in the uk . We have been said we are one of the most tolerant countries in the world.
Well what has tolerance got us??, A bit of a dumping ground realy, and as we have no desire to leave we will now take back and clean up society because the vast majority of the uk have had enough.
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P.s. to A.C.
We should all thank Goodness that as well as freedom of religion we also have freedom of speech and freedom of the press in this still great country of ours, I do agree with A.C that we should read widely and wisely, the proof that A.C. seeks on Joseph of Arimathea is to be found on the internet site The Profectic Telegraph No.76, where his visits to Britain are well documented by eminent historians, the Bible is also proving to be historically accurate by archeologists finds etc. A truly great mind is open to all arguments and a truly great heart is open to considering them.
God bless you.
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Guten Morgen, Currently in Leipzig and my German pal has a symbol on her car that shows she is a non believer, its a fish with an eagle catching it and it has been vandalised by some Christian!!
Ban all religion!!
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Ah – there’s no-one quite so bigoted as the religious…
The fact is that no-one has ‘banned’ these churches from playing their songs, they’ve simply been made to turn the volume down to acceptable levels – the same that apply to every other part of society.
The complainant might well have been annoyed by the noise – he may also have been a bigot too. Either way it’s irrelevant. The council are upholding the law – that’s their job, and regardless of creed or colour, the local residents should be pleased about that.
And as for the ‘proof’ of the mythical visit of Joseph of Arimathea to Britain ( a visit much tied in with the money-making activities of the monks of Glastonbury Abbey, and their dubious discovery of the bones of King Arthur), the website mentioned is that of an ardently Evangelical Christian couple from Skegness, who are clearly not historians, and who would clearly place any scientific evidence pretty low on their list of items of proof.
‘The old crow’ clearly doesn’t understand the difference between proof and opinion!
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@ the old crow
interesting report you refer to in the torygraph.
2 churches have had nosie abatement notices issued because of the noise from the singing and amplified sermons.
No is disputing their right to worship, the issue is the noise with which they do it.
If you lived next to a pub with noisy singing and discussions you would complain.
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Finch. Tolerence might not get you what you want – but replace it with intolerance and you certainly wont get what you want. you’re the minority in one way or other and well, I dont need to explain further (Do I?) I think this story is more to do with the stupid culture-killing laws on live music we have these days.
Aside from all that the council must have acted on genuine complaints and are required by law to act, but the newspapers have mustn’t have given us the full information (just the dramatic bits) – what was the prior story to the ban – how often did it happen, what is it like to live next door and did the complaints get ignored by those making them or have they tried to help?
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As a Christian, I would also complain and would expect the Council to act if I was subjected to the racket that some of these arm waving, hand clapping, drum thumping, trumpet blowing and guitar strumming idiots get up to. Some of the practices that these “new” and evangelical Christians get up to are enough to raise complaints from any “normal” person and they themselves “turn off” many other christian people. If anyone wishes to see the manner in which some Christian Church services have been turned into loud, raucous “raves” in many cases, tune in to Songs of Praise on a Sunday evening.
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All religions have a set of laws and moral codes by which the adherents to it, carry them out. The purpose of this letter was to bring to the attention that at some of these freedoms are gradually becoming eroded. Worship for instance.
It Peter’s assertion that acceptable volume rules apply to every other part of society is clearly wrong. When Jools Holland or Will Young play in the quarry, I can hear it in my village which is about 5 miles away. Is that acceptable? If I wrote to Shropshire council complaining about the noise, would they ban it on the strength of one person? Perhaps these are a sign of things to come?
Just the same as the council is seen to be upholding the law, equally, Christians who worship at the church have a right to complain about the judgement of the council — after all the church was established there 40 plus years ago and have never been complained about before. Why all of a sudden does one resident of that area object and yet all the other residents are quite happy with the church being in a community? Furthermore why does the council say “it might upset the Muslims “?
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Stuart,
I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you! I was brought up in a religious environment, though I’m a confirmed atheist now. I have the greatest respect for those who have faith that they actually take the time to question, and who have studied the theology and history of their faith, but I have nothing but contempt for shallow born-again types, who believe utterly blindly – blind faith is empty faith.
As for Church music, I was a chorister as a boy, and despite my atheism, there is still a great deal of joy to be had listening to Palestrina or Thomas Tallis, and as for Allegri’s Miserere, it’s hardly surprising that the Catholic Church tried to keep this music effectively a secret for so long due to its beauty.
Compare these to the awful happy-clappy nonsense that is foisted upon the Evangelical types to try and induce the sort of mass hysteria that gives rise to ‘speaking in tongues’ and other such nonsense, and it’s easy to see why the neighbours might get annoyed at these people inflicting their ‘faith’ upon others.
Trevor,
Your comparison with Jools Holland etc. is simply not valid. Venues such as the Quarry are subject to licensing laws. Whilst a once a year performance might be allowed, it would be entirely different if Jools and his band were to perform weekly (if only!).
I’m sure that the council in London would be prepared to relax its restrictions for major religious festivals, but the week in week out assault on the ears is unacceptable. Other churches manage to have sermons and hymns in an audible manner without broadcasting to the neighbourhood – why can’t Evangelicals?
Councils don’t just place such bans without doing several measurements of the noise level, and issuing warnings, so these churches have no-one but themselves to blame.
If you’d read the Telegraph article properly before jumping to your paranoid conclusion and placing an entirely unnecessary chip on your shoulder (as well as indulging in a bit of casual religious bigotry along the way), you’d have noticed that a) there were numerous complaints in the one case, and that b) in the other, the council said nothing about ‘offending Muslims’ – the Pastor of the church said that, and after all, he would, wouldn’t he?
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Peter,
Okay, I accept your views addressed to me, however, I think the comments made to Stuart show your true colours. A disillusioned ex-Roman Catholic. When one accepts God into their life they do so by faith and faith alone. Faith is indeed blind otherwise it would not be faith (by very definition). It is only when people’s doubts about their faith creep in that people actually do some historical research. You mentioned that the Catholic Church had kept secret some of the beautiful pieces of music which you claim were hidden from you because the beauty, but I would go one step further and say that they were hidden from you because there was some element of truth which they did not want you to know — hence Martin Luther’s reformation.
The reference to Joseph of Arimathea was to provoke some thought amongst Christians who have been led to believe that the Romans brought Christianity to these shores. A lie propagated by the church in Rome. The Roman Catholic Church has hidden the truth about the roots of Christianity to the masses; similarly, so too has the new age movement around Glastonbury.
You also refer to happy-clappy types who “speak in tongues and other such nonsense”. It is NOT nonsense because it is referred to in the Bible and the style of worship is not exclusive to that phenomena. It is only nonsense to non-believers. Furthermore, the Bible also refers to being born-again and so who are you to judge such people?
It might come as a surprise to you, but I too did not like that kind of worship (but each to his own), nevertheless God’s people should be allowed to worship in whatever way they like without hindrance from other faiths.
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God save us from religion
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Trevor,
Where in my article did I say I was a Roman Catholic? I referred to the Catholic Church with respect to Allegri’s Miserere – one piece of music. Once again, as with the Telegraph article, you’ve skimmed the article for the bits you wanted to see and jumped to conclusions.
As to the Miserere, it is a matter of historical fact that it was guarded only to be used at certain church services, as it was held to be a sacred piece of music, not to be written down for publication. In the end, Mozart heard the piece in church, and, being a genius, he wrote it down despite that one hearing only.
It is also historically highly likely that Christianity was brought to this country by the Romans – there is certainly a great deal of physical evidence to support this. There’s no such evidence to support the highly dubious Joseph of Arimathea story. But of course, you wouldn’t want to give any credence to the Roman Catholics – clearly your religious prejudices extend beyond Muslims to other Christian religions. I find it rather pitiful that followers of Judaeo-Christian religions squabble amongst themselves so much.
As for your assertion that ‘speaking in tongues’ is not nonsense because ‘it is referred to in the Bible’ – that simply helps make my point. Having something written down in a book is not evidence! Anyone could have written that, with any sort of motive for doing so. This ‘speaking in tongues’ is well documented as an hysterical reaction in highly agitated crowds – the same hysterical reaction could well haver occurred thousands of years ago too – it’s simply part of the human psyche.
But if you are so wedded to the idea that writing something down represents evidence, perhaps you would do well to consider the words of George Gershwin: ‘The things that you’re liable to read in the Bible, it ain’t necessarily so’!
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@nonbeliever
Believe it or not, that is exactly what God is trying to do, and has been doing so from the beginning of time. The Bible tells us so in James 1: 27… Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
As I understand it, one can only keep oneself from being polluted by the world by asking Jesus into your heart.
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@ Peter,
Perhaps this is too simple for you to understand, but in the words of Jesus “IT IS WRITTEN”
The EXPERIENCE of speaking in tongues and being born again are both very personal to the individual and regardless of your comments, they are enough evidence for me and millions of Christians worldwide.
God bless you.
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This is going to be my last word on this subject (I promise)
After having read all the arguments so far, and after being by implication referred to as a bigot by some of your writers, I would suggest that they read their comments over again and consider who actually are the ones that have been insulting and bogoted, you do not know me well enough to be able to judge my character or that of any other correspondent for that matter, but you have felt justified in attacking individuals on a personal level anyway.
If you would like to hear historical facts try researching the impact the Muslim community have had on the established religions in the Countries they have moved into and eventually taken over for example Afghanistan (who were able to practice Bhuddism at one time). Some people are concerned that this could happen in our Country also and our precious freedoms could be lost forever.
You may not have a personal faith or you may have a very narrow view of religion, but I respect the choices you have made and would never insult you for those opinions.
Jesus said when people persucute you in my name (Christ) rejoice, so I say hip hip hooray!!!!!
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How sad that as there is only one God we spend so much time fighting about whose side he is on.
I have served very proudly in HM Forces for over 30 years. Each and every tour I have seen active service in has had an under current of religion.
Religion has since the start of time been a barrier and scurge to normal society. It is a cancer on the world agin to Drugs, alchol abuse and a lack of family moral values.
If there is a God why is there so much misery in the world.
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For those who quote a religious book – please -they are but the words of men (not God) written in times of fear and ignorance. To cite them as some form of Godly proof or truth belittles the individual. How Mr Mytton and others can go from a noise abatement issue to concerns about bigotry, a Muslim takeover and Islamophobia is also beyond me. Alas whilst blind faith is allowed to prevail good sense and reason will always struggle. And from that we will have intolerance, conflict and even wars. Remove religion and you will find decency has a chance.
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We can easily forgive a child that is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
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We can easily forgive a child that is afraid of the dark.
The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light
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@ non believer
surprisingly, I agree with your sentiment exactly.
Permit me to answer or (at least try to answer) your questions.
The problem of life is sin. The wages of sin is death and we all die, and therefore we have all fallen short of God’s standard. And there is only one way to overcome this;
Inside each one of us there is a God-shaped void which needs to be filled and more often than not, it is filled with tangible things such as drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, hedonism, wealthy lifestyles, to name but a few. However, God is more concerned about our eternal destiny. Is it any wonder that the devil, God’s enemy, has tried to distract us from knowing the truth. He’s the one who wants doubts and fears into our minds!
Thereby lies a problem; because people cannot see God ( i.e. He is not tangible, he is spiritual), we have no choice but to accept him and believe in him by faith and faith alone. (Is it any wonder people want to tell the world that the way ahead is to know Jesus?)
I would suggest that the world is full of misery because people do not believe in God and the further away they get, the more miserable the world becomes. God himself is well aware of our pain and misery and that is why he sent his only begotten son to die for our sin so that we may not die (spiritually) but have eternal life.
Perhaps others find that their religion has something more to offer but Christianity is the only one where God actually came and dwelt with us (in the shape of Jesus) and that is the one that I have chosen.
I am sorry if you find this offensive, but this is the way I see it.
I did not discover God until I was 27 years old, before that I did not believe in him.
I sincerely hope that you will discover him for yourself at some time — it’s never too late!
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Let’s consider biblical truth. We have Christians, Jews and Muslims all accepting the Old Testament but with various and often wildly different interpretations. We then have each faith’s own religious book. We also have faith variables – Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Baptists, various Orthodox churches, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Quakers and the born again fringes all of whom claim to be right. We even have the Church of Scientology and it’s belief in aliens living in volcanoes. Add to that there are the various Jewish and Islamic sects who also claim theirs is the one true way.
Now if there is one God there can surely only be one interpretation of His or Her or Its truth. That such variety exists is due to the fact that God is a creation of man and “His” words as recorded in various holy books are merely the words (often rewritten) of men, by men and for mankind. It is surely time for us to move away from such twaddle.
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Dear Simon
Please be careful that you are absolutely sure of what you are saying lest you may reap what you sow, one day like all of us you will have to stand before Almighty God and give account of yourself,try at least to keep an open mind
God bless you.
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@ Simon,
Indeed Simon lets consider biblical truth. Your observations are quite correct and there is a vast difference between Christians, Jews and Muslims who all accept the old Testament (or do they?) The old Testament speaks a coming Messiah or saviour who would be God himself (in the flesh). The prophet Isaiah even names him as Jesus — and that was a good 500 years before it happened! And that, my friend, is where Christians part company from the Jews and the Muslims. The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah to come, and it seems like they have missed the boat! Similarly, the Muslims waited a little longer until their prophet, Mohammed came along and claimed to be God’s messenger.
Sometimes the truth hurts…
Furthermore, the Muslims happened to be the result of the union of Abram & Hagar whereas Christians are the result of the union between Abraham and Sarah. You may not understand the difference, but Abram had been promised a Child from God and he believed God. Unfortunately because he (Abram) was getting on in years his wife Sarai, told him to go and sleep with Hagar, their maid. They then had a Child called Ishmael — a wild donkey of a man who would be hated by all, but also would hate everyone else. Nevertheless, because he was a seed of a Abram, Ishmael would be blessed and the father of a great nation. This tells us in effect that Muslims and Christians have the same father but a different mother — so that makes us half-brothers.
Sometimes the truth hurts…
If perchance these old Testament teachings were true, then does that not explain alot? Could a man, or several men, write all these future events down? In my opinion, yes they can and they indeed were! BUT THROUGH THE INSPIRATION OF GOD which is quite a different thing. Have you ever been inspired Simon?
I could also deal with the various denominations of Christians and explain some of the fundamental differences which cause them to be in error, but would that be of interest to you?
Sometimes the truth hurts…
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Debbie
I’m sure your blessings are heartfelt and for that I am grateful. Rest assured though that I am absolutely confident that none of us will be standing before Almighty God. Unfortunately blind faith and a need to believe in an eternal afterlife is something that others still somehow pray for; hence your suggestion that I keep an open mind – presumably “just in case”. The simple facts are that we live, we die, and our DNA gets re-used is the reality that I accept. I do not need to seek consolation in a preacher’s interpretation of ancient writings from a bygone age.
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Simon says in #20 about his confusion as to why the subject can go from noise abatement to a Muslim takeover. The reason is quite simple. The word of God must be protected at all times because it is the most important piece of knowledge that we will ever be given.
I find it very interesting that he says “remove religion and you will find decency has a chance”. Do you mean Christianity or all religions? Do you really think that a God who loves us, would allow his creation to fall apart? That is the very heart of being human!
We are already seeing what happens when there is no religion; morals would go out of the window for starters, chaos would ensue, law and order breakdown because many of these are on based on Christian biblical principles where it is no longer permissible to discipline children (contrary to the Bible is warning: Spare the rod and spoil the child); they get drunk, they get pregnant, they have no respect for others, they vandalise people’s property and they’re going to reap what you sow!
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@ Simon,
“our DNA gets reused” please explain.
This is a FACT that I am not aware of. I assume that it is tangible where no faith is required. Perhaps it is some new scientific discovery that excuses one from having a faith.
You would do well to keep in mind Debbie’s suggestion. None of us have all the answers and the indeed the apostle Paul was a great persecutor of Christians until he had a conversion on the road to Damascus. The same could happen to you and so my advice would be to keep in mind.
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Mr Mytton if I can explain. I die and one way or another – through burning or decomposition – the material that was me (including DNA) gets re-used or recycled by other life forms. Such is the simple and uncomplicated reality of life. I do not need a blind faith in Gods or other mythical entities to provide me with comfort for my present and future. As for morals those come from decency and respect not from selective interpretation of holy books. If anything the monotheist faiths have a history of acting in grossly immoral ways in the name of their respective religions. Quoting the Bible and Paul’s supposed conversion merely reinforces your faith but tells me nothing. In fact Biblical quotes are used selectively as I am sure you are aware with previously Biblically sanctioned behaviour now deemed wrong and often illegal by most societies today. As for the belief in an afterlife – if that gives you comfort I am happy for you; although I do wonder – if the flavour of the Star’s usual letters are anything to go by – are you not worried the place might be full and overcrowded with lots of “bogus” or “failed” believers?
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Dear Simon,
You are correct my blessings are heartfelt, but I do have to just explain a couple of things to you, my faith is not’blind’ I searched for God for years and studied most of the religions you mentioned, unfortunatley they all left me cold, eventually I gave up looking and came to the same conclusion as you have done, when I stopped searching God in his infinate love and mercy (through a series of events that time does not permit me to go into, when I was turned 30)found me.
The reason I am asking you to keep an open mind(and heart) is not ‘just in case’as you put it, when you make up your mind about something that is your choice, however God is a Gentleman and he doesn’t go where He is not wanted, but if you keep an open mind, He will be able to reach you too. I pray sincerely that this is the case for you.
Many Blessings
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Dear Simon,
It Would appear that I would have to agree to disagree with you because I do believe that the morals of society were built upon the basis of the 10 Commandments.
Furthermore, I am not worried at all about the afterlife becoming overcrowded with bogus or failed believers because I’m certain that they won’t (God has a certain criteria that people who should inherit his kingdom must be born again). My concern in life is to bring others into God’s kingdom as my biggest regret in life was not meeting God until I was 27.
Anyway Simon have a comfortable and peaceful life, but remember… There’s always time to change your mind hence they quote about Paul.
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Debbie
I am genuinely grateful for your blessings and mean no disrespect to you or others with a religious conviction if that brings you comfort. But, we have in this world those who are brought up within a faith and know no difference, or those who search and study various religions until they find the one that best fits their needs or expectations. I personally find that quite odd (with all due respect)if the central premise of a monotheist religion is one truth: there should be no need to search or study. That said, I wish you well
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