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Letter: Signs clear but not read
Friday 16th October 2009, 7:37AM BST.
Letter: Having learned of the unfortunate incident of a work colleague being issued with a parking ticket in Meole Brace Retail Park, I decided to take a closer look at the signs placed around the parking areas for car users on match days.
I have also been quizzing relatives and friends to find out if it it widely known that parking is limited to 90 minutes on match days.
The signs are clear and unambiguous (which is good), but sadly almost everyone I spoke to admitted they have never considered reading them as they thought the detail was purely for football traffic.
May I take this opportunity to remind those who don’t know that parking in Meole Brace Retail Park on match days is restricted and regardless of being a genuine shopper, you will incur a £100 fine for exceeding the 90 minutes allowed.
May I also suggest to the parking enforcement company that maybe, in the interests of fairness and absolute understanding, they remove some of the rather anonymous legal notices (like that on the roundabout on the entrance to the park) and replace them with clear signage in straightforward English, that parking is restricted on match days and motorist are advised to read the notices placed around the site.
I have used this shopping park for 10 years and have not considered, even once, to read the notices – I cannot believe I am the only one.
David M Joyce
Shrewsbury
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Thanks so much for pointing this out David. I have a large grown up family and this sort of time is easy to use up in one just shop at Sainsbury especially now that company has sought to penalize the shoppers who buy a lot of products from them by having increased their self service section to the detriment of those who need a till assistant.The queues for the tills service can hold people up for 15 minutes. :(
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The “tickets” they issue aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.
Vine vs Waltham Forest states that in order to agree to the conditions signage must be read.
Furthermore the ticketing company must demonstrate genuine financial loss (see Dunlop for authority) which I doubt they can.
Private parking has to be one of the most disreputable industries ever.
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Andy – (#2)
Where you say that signs “must be read” do you mean:
If you DON’T read them -you aren’t liable?
I can’t see that being the case – although I have to say it’s very exciting if it is!
I’ve always wondered about the “law of contract” so to speak, if the “contract” isn’t discussed/agreed beforehand – and so – how binding is it if all you’ve got is a few signs to “read”?
So if I understand it – you drive into a car park, and,
As you aren’t given a “contract/ terms /conditions of use ” which or course you could read / agree and sign before parking your car” – and then:
No contract exists – and so no action can be taken ?
And as for financial loss – as you say – I doubt there is any.
And certainly – with clamping in mind – Private parking IS the most disreputable industries EVER !
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An update on “notices” from Vine Vs Waltha, Forest:
The summing up of the case reads in part:
“Normally the presence of notices which are posted where they are bound to be seen, for example at the entrance to a private car park, which are of a type which the car driver would be bound to have read, will lead to a finding that the car driver had knowledge of and appreciated the warning”
So – if they are “bound to be seen” then I’m afraid it looks as though you’ll be liable – …. as I thought
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You’re quite right, David. Few people read these sort of signs because we’re surrounded by signs, especially in a retail environment, and we suffer information overload. This suits those responsible for parking enforcement. If you doubt that they promote unfair practice – by what yardstick is the £100 fine considered to be proportionate? King John’s or the Sheriff of Nottingham’s?
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Then the answer is, shop in Wellington. All parking is free.
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askeric dotcom The legal position is a bit more complex than that. In Vine she didn’t read the signs due to being unwell despite them being prominent. Prominence is not always the issue.
Signage is just one issue though.
They can only ask the driver for money, they are the one entering the contract. These companies invariably ask the registered keeper for money before they identify the driver. This is contrary to the established codes of practice.
Also they need to demonstrate their actual loss as per Dunlop. In a free car park I’m guessing the loss will not be £100! This sounds very much like a penalty which would render the contract invalid.
Then there is the question of landowner rights. I doubt the parking company is the landowner. They would merely be an agent. This gives them no right to take you court, it needs to be the landowner.
These are the main hurdles, there are many others.
In short they can write many threatening letters but don’t really have the right to demand money from you (as Excel parking and CP Plus have found out in court!) on retail parks.
Lastly these are not “fines”. A fine is imposed in a court of law, not dished out by private companies. These are invoices based on contract law.
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Hi Andy –
I’m very interested by this.
Just to point out – I’m on your side! – that’s why I said in post #3 that: “I find it exciting if it is so etc”
Certainly in the Vine case – yes – she was unwell etc – but in the last paragraph it then went goes on to say about notices “bound to be seen” … so that’s when my heart sunk!
It sounds like you are a solicitor or some other legally qualified person in this area ? – and I’m really intrigued by what you say.
It really is time that someone took up these sorts of cases for the beleagured motorist – especially in the area of clamping.
As you rightly said – parking must (IS!) be one of the most disreputable industries going -and it’s long overdue for sorting out1
What about a few signs posted up on carparks showing facts etc as you’ve stated?
Wouldn’t it be nice to see actions starting to be taken en-masse against these types of operation?
Over to you Andy!
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Clampers are the lowest of them all.
If people are interested in these issues I would recommend Googling Pepipoo fightback forum, It’s dedicated to motoring issues and does have Police and Lawyers who can explain the legal position.
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I had a ‘Parking Charge Notice’ in yesterday’s post, from a company called Parking Eye Car Park Management. We went over to Aber a couple of weeks ago and were parked from 14.26 until 16.45. (Maximum stay apparently 2 hours). Not a pay and display just a time limit which I hadn’t even noticed.
We were actually on the Rheidol Retail Park as we had popped in the shops then went to the Wetherspoons in the station for some dinner. They are demanding £50 if paid by 26th October, rising to £80 if later (plus another £30 ‘admin’).
I wouldn’t mind if a) I had even noticed a time limit and b) if the shops hadn’t shut at 4pm anyway!
Any suggestions what I should do? I have a phone number for them but would appreciate how best to approach it.
Thanks- Nick
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I think I’ve been moderated.
The best thing to do with private tickets is to ignore them.
I know Parking Eye. You get some very scary letters threatening court then they give up!
Excel Parking tried to take 2 motorists to court and lost both times. Google is your friend! It’s been in the national press.
CP Plus have lost 3 times.
If no loss is incurred then they have no basis of claim (Dunlop vs New Garage and Motor Co Ltd )
Also Google Privity of contract.
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Wasn’t there something about this on Watchdog or the One Show a couple of weeks back? I’m sure they advised not to pay these tickets as they’re not legal
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The “ticket”, whilst looking like a parking ticket, is actually an invoice.
The accompanying letter will use words such as bailiffs, but, if you do not respond to the original contact from the company, they need to take you to court to get their “fine”. They almost certainly will not do this, as it is not cost effective.
They will not get bailiffs involved unless they get a court order. This is unlikely to happen, again due to the costs involved.
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Agree with Mike Preece, suggest a stroll to pepipoo .com to see other cases.
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Private companies do not have the legal authority to issue fines to members of the public. All they can issue are invoices, and as pointed out earlier they can only claim for their losses. As it is a free car park their losses are zero.
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PPCs, or Private parking Companies, no legal authority whatsoever. Only Police, local governmentauthorities & courts can issue fines. PPC’s issue invoices, these are just an invitation to pay, just ignore their invitation. They can (& will) send copious amounts of ever more threatening letters suggesting they can make you bankrupt, call in bailiffs, ruin your credt etc, etc, all just idle threats. Their issue is with the driver, NOT the owner/reg keeper & the keepers has no obligation to inform the scammers of the identity of said driver. Do not contact these PPC’s if you get an invoice, they WILL get bored & go away after several letters. As suggested, visit Pepipoo on line for further advice.
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I can also wholeheartedly add my support for Pepipoo.
An excellent resource for many years.
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The parking companies (CP Plus etc) buy the registered keeper’s details from the DVLA for £2.50 then send a few invoices, or as they call them “Parking Charge Notices” along with nasty and offical sounding letters. Don’t reply, after a few “final reminder before legal action” letters they give up.
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A friend had one of these for over staying at a tesco down south . He told them and it was actually the truth he had been in the tesco for 3 hours hard to believe i know but true they asked him for a till reciept he said he had thrown it away anyway a few letters later never heard anything again.They are not worth the paper they are written on infact tell them to take yu to court.
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Pepipoo is your friend for all relevent info on these parking scams
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All I would add to the above is to sumarise the position as I see it regarding PPCs: As private parking is based on contract law, it is only the driver of the car at the time of the incident who could be theoretically liable to the actual losses (usually nothing) the organisation incurs, not the registered keeper, and, unlike police notices, you are under no obligation to tell them. Furthermore, only courts can levy fines: The police can offer a £60 settlement fee, but you have the right to contest this in court. Local authorities cannot call their charges ‘fines’, merely ‘penalty charges’, against which you have the right of representation.
I agree that pepipoo is the best place to visit for such matters.
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I left this Sceptred Isle some Forty years ago and already at that time there were signs of the saturation of motor vehicles that has become commonplace and in particular the “Parking” of the damn things! ……. in my perusal of News sites in the UK via the internet demonstrates to me that there is more coverage of the problems related to where to put the objects of your affection than the Political and Economic problems that confront your Nation! ………..
However what utterly astounds me is that in this thread for the first time ever I have seen a reference to the Parking of a Motorcar described as an “Industry” ……. As Ebenezer would say ” I’ll retire to Bedlam”……….
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I work on the retail park and was “fined” for forgetting my parking permit. I appealed, but of course this failed. A quick internet search made me realise the scam I’d been a victim of. I won’t forget the permit again, it’ll be deliberately absent!
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