Talk Talk the above comment is true.The trouble with the brits these days is they have no back bone when it comes to saying NO enough is enough .I remember when i was an employee a number of staff around 25 had a problem with our employer they all talked a good battle when it came to the crunch only 5 of us were ready for the flack the rest sneaked off like a bunch of rats deserting a sinking ship .
Now as an employer i can see how my old employer saw their employees 95% will do as they are told mainly becouse they have got themselves so reliant on the pay with no savings etc etc you can actually get them to stand on their heads and whistle rule brittania.

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English exile is absolutly right, whenever we British get ripped off we mumble under our breath and at best tut. not sure what the motoring alliance can do about it but the french would block the roads and force their government to act.

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Steve, that is exactly the response I expect from someone living in spineless rip off Britain.
Don’t have a go at me, get off your backside and do something, other than talk, about it.
Absolutely typical.

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I disagree with Peter Roberts’ points about fuel tax and I hope that people are aware of the climate change denying agenda of the Drivers’ Alliance.

In an earlier discussion with me, Mr Roberts made the ridiculous claim that carbon dioxide emissions have no effect on climate change ( http://www.shropshirestar.com/2007/08/30/climate-change-to-blame/ #8 ).

A subsequent discussion thread after the launch of his Drivers’ Alliance ( http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/06/13/group-to-air-views-of-drivers/ ) showed that his new organisation was still in wilful denial about global warming, the defining issue of our age.

Mr Roberts’ supporters repeatedly evaded any examination of his untenable, unscientific views on climate change.

NASA’s James Hansen, the first scientist to warn about global warming in the 1980s, recently said,

“If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 parts per million (ppm) to at most 350 ppm.”

To reach this 350ppm target governments around the world need to have the bottle (and the vision) to use the tax system to move away from fossil fuels and invest that money in a low-carbon economy, which can provide local jobs in public transport, waste management, energy efficiency and alternative energy generation.

When people are struggling to make ends meet and unemployment is rising, a government with vision must use the tax system to invest massively in the future and create sustainable jobs.

This is why, in a world of peak oil and climate change, the UK must have the bottle to face down denialists like the Drivers’ Alliance and embrace a Green New Deal.

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Lucy (#5)

I hope you’re not serious about red diesel?
That is definitely NOT a good idea!

And following on …

Problem is, it isn’t just about Fuel prices.

The WHOLE issue of motoring in the UK is a disgrace.

We pay A LOT OF MONEY to use the roads, and the motoring fraternity is being hounded literally to extinction.

Driving in the UK has long ceased to be a pleasure. (And so most of my driving these days is for essential business only, and the occasional private use where neccessary).

The roads are poorly maintained, often closed for days on end for no good reason (what about the farce at Wenlock edge, and the A442 at Norton – closed for 10 days just to put a drainage pipe under the road?)

There are far too many cameras, far too much signage and paint on the roads – the whole thing is being dumbed down to the (very) lowest common denominator.

So .. what ARE we going to do about it?

The AA and the RAC, and the Institute of advanced Motorists don’t seem interested ..
I’ve never seen any of those groups active in this respect….

Or put another way, what we need is a drivers group to actively campaign for the Motoring fraternity, not for rubber stamping every change to our road system etc put forward!

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Huw Peach,

Claiming that we shouldn’t be complaining about the fuel prices due to global warming is fine but you obviously don’t live in an area where a car is a necessity.

Where I live we don’t have access to public transport the nearest bus stop is 3 miles away and even if that bus stop was nearer I couldn’t use it to get to work as the first bus would get me there 30 mins late.

Also you are not looking at the knock on effect of the increase in food prices etc.

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Opps should have said Enlish exile said, Sorry Steve.

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Well this is an interesting one . As for lucy, I know a number of farmers/ builders useing red diesel not the best for their CARS 4X4 and nor is legal it all depends if you were brought up to be honest realy.Now i would not use public transport ie arriva i would rather crawl to my destination than be driven by these bunch of oiks, the car is starting to drink petrol even a little car like mine.
So i have thought about a Horse or pony&trap as im not in a rush to get any where, either would be fairly nice in the summer a little bit cold in the winter but it was ok for dick turpin and as this country is run by a bunch of dick turpins i may as well become one.

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Askeric,

You are right, Harley Bank and Norton are just typical examples of how road travel around shropshire is becoming a joke.

In Norton for instance they want to make it a 30MPH limit and increase the already silly 40MPH limits which already cover what is no more than a “hamlet” with about 7-8 buildings alongside the main road.

If Shropshire county council do this for every hamlet with a mere half dozen houses in it(like they also propose in Leighton) , we won’t be able to travel more than a mile or two before having to slow right down every five minutes.

This needs to be fought against.

I would think more of the Drivers Alliance if they campaigned against something like this.

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Peter Roberts, CEO, of this pro car group who denies climate change – answer me this – where do you get your funding for your fancy title and promotional efforts ?????

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Care to post details / link to what your proposed “Green New Deal” is? It doesn’t involve wearing sandals and a cardigan of woven hemp does it?

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Huh peach, how is tax going to save the planet? The money isn’t spent on solutions. But ok tax away. And when everything else becomes to expensive don’t blame us

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The whole climate change movement is just another ruse by the government to introduce new taxes and increase those already in place. there is zero chance of getting the fuel price down, after all somebody has to pay for all those billions of money that was printed, and for the panic decisions to try stave off the recession (meanwhile germany is already out of recession, remember the disagreements with out leaders about how to handle the recession???) We better all get used to ever increasing taxes.

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The man-made global warming thingy is all a con that people use to justify their actions. Take Al Gore, he is now paid by Audi to promote their fossil fuel consuming Audi A6 – not exactly a thrifty eco-car?

By the way, some parts of the world are cooling down! Yes, I have been to Franz Joseph Glacier, NZ, twice, and it is clearly advancing – yet our local greenies can’t explain why. Also our local greenies can’t provide the data that global warming comes from. Why? Because its selective to serve their cause!

And no wonder Al Gore mde his silly film with several scientific inccuracies – because he has a Carbon Trading Company that profits from this scaremongering.

Look, its like this, once upon a time we believed the world was flat….. Throughout history man had believed in acropolytic theories, global warming is the current one now we have survived the Y2K global meltdown!

Honestly *tut*

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Surprised to see that ToryBoy has not been on saying how the next tory goverment will cut fuel taxation Blah blah blah.

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Mark, I like wise visited Fox Glacier as well, but visited Frans Joseph twice on consecutive years. I’ve also visited the Columbia ice-fields and climbed the Grossglocker above the Grossglocker glacier (I get around as well!) and accept some glaciers are retreating, but why do the greenies deny any are advancing and fail to explain? Why no data to support their findings?

If you don’t believe Frans Joseph is advancing then stay ignorant – it is well documented.

Just as you are ignorant about Al Gore. I appreciate he hides his interests in a corporate web of deception, but his private equity company, Generation Investment Management has one of the largest Carbon Credit portfolis in the world with a major share holding in Camco International Ltd (a carbon trading company in case you didn’t know).

Now just where is the water leaking from that? You greenies will fall for anything if its accropolictic. Yet give you some good news, like, we’re not all going to die because Al Gores flying everywhere in his private jet, then you just don’t want to know.

Honestly *tut*

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Mark, on the theme of ‘adding to the sum of accurate information in the world’, what is your view of this Channel 4 News discussion about glaciers (http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/are%20the%20glaciers%20melting/107930 -10½ mins long), in which David Bellamy’s arguments (remarkably similar to Lucy W’s) are exposed as fraudulent by George Monbiot?

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http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/are%20the%20glaciers%20melting/107930

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I’ve nothing personally against Al Gore, I think he’s quite a joker!

On the 14th October 2007, Al Gore spoke at a climate change conference in the Netherlands. All the other delegates arrived in manner to preserve their eco-credentials, e.g. train, bus, electric car etc. But not Al Gore…oh no!

Al Gore turned up in an Audi A6 2.0 TDie and has been payed by Audi to endorse it. Audi told him how eco-friendly it was, 53.3mpg (!!!!) but having said that it had 5% lower CO2, 30% less Nitrogen oxides, outstanding 93% CO reduction and zero sulphur oxide emissions.

Al Gore justified his arrival on these impressive statistics. However, what Al Gore didn’t realise was that his TDie was not running on diesel to produce this impressive eco-friendly statistic. It was actually running on GLT (Gas to Liquids) fuel that you can’t buy at the pump and in any event the reduction of consumption pollution is more than the increase of production pollution – so we won’t be seeing it for a while.

If he had been using diesel, then he would have left a trail of bronchial disease behind him that the greenies keep telling us about.

What a muppet! Makes David Ike look like a sage.

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(WHACK!) I’m now banging my head against my desk ( WHACK!) in the hope of smashing out my own brains (WHACK!). Anything – anything- to stop the pain (WHACK!)
Please. Please. Make her stop…(WHACK!) (WHACK!) (WHACK!)

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CORRECTION TO #38
GTL (Gas to Liquids) fuel that you can’t buy at the pump and in any event the reduction of consumption pollution is LESS than the increase of production pollution.

Sorry, I get all of a dither when people mention this silly globl warming thing.

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David Bellamy is a scientist (undertakes scientific research), respected throughout the world. George Monboit is a journalist (writes stories), apparently, who is best known by lower IQ readers of the Guardian.

How dare you mock Professor Sir David Bellamy OBE with the ranting of ‘journalistic’ opinion.

As Sir David used to say “everything gwows and gwows and gwows.”

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there is an even bigger ripoff than petrol, anybody tried buying a carton of motor oil recently. petrol does go up and down but oil £8.40 a litre, scandalous

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I would have loved to comment on the price of fuel but the news thread seems to have been taken over by a couple of globe trotting eco warriors trying to out eco each other..

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My mode of transport only has one BHP and that’s because I use my horse. I urge others to use their horses to get to the church, mosque, temple, shops or wherever they worship.

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Oh dear Huw, you may have scored an own goal mentioning the Royal Society.

I’m sure we all remember that book that Huw goes on about in which it is claimed that petroleum companys fund ‘bogus’ scientific instututions to make there case.

Well apply his logic the Royal Society, who is mainly funded by a Parlimentary Grant, and his conclusion is that the RS pumps out this global warming nonsense to justify the governments taxation policy.

Well what’s the difference Huw?

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Mark #29, no wonder the glaciers are retreating if you go round putting large pinches of salt on them..

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Huw, no, I’m not Peter Roberts. Are you Lucy W?
I often wonder if it is just you talking to yourself some days, just to try and take over a sensible debate by waffling on about the only thing that you seem to be able to waffle on about….green issues and the Green Party.

I am more concerned about the total desecration of our road system, with all the silly low speed limits that are being proposed everywhere that there are half a dozen houses, “pretending” to be villages but unlike yourself, (whoever you may be), I don’t intend to take over the whole debate with it.

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Huw,

I think it’s about time you took a long hard look at how YOU are portraying the subject of global warming

I’m sure you are very sincere in your views but really……

Can’t you understand that your constant ranting, and re-gurgitating facts and figures on global warming – espeically on discussion threads started by others, and NOT directly addressing global warming …. doesn’t do you, or the subject any good at all?

If you want to promote this very worthy subject, then why not start your own thread specifically about global warming?

I’m sure that most of us would post intelligent and courteous comments!!

- BUT –

As an interesting point, on the other hand …how would YOU then like it if “we” started to hi-jack it with endless comments on something different?
(Which actually I wouldn’t do as I would respect the boundaries of discussion)

As an example…

Please read what spencer says in #48:

“I would have loved to comment on the price of fuel but the news thread seems to have been taken over by a couple of globe trotting eco warriors trying to out eco each other..”

I asked you politely in #15 to stick to the subject under discussion – and clearly you have not taken any notice.

Huw, I really DO think that you need to understand that:

IF you want to be taken seriously, then constantly invading disucssions, however much you may feel there’s a connection with global warming … ISN’T the way to do it!!

Actually, I would quite like to have a sensible discussion about global warming, so .. come on then !!!

And.. as I’ve said before, I’m NOT going to enter into a futile discussion with you here! – so .. PLEASE DON’T come back with another string of quotes and internet links. I simply won’t, …. as a matter of principle, take any note of them.

… If I want to find out about global warming, I am quite capable of finding relevant facts and figures by myself!

So there it is, …try putting your views across on an appropriate platform, in a more subtle way, and you may well find greater success !

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Huw, please do us all a favour, and SHUT UP !!!!

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Peter Roberts (#51) thanks for your advice on how to help the environmental movement.

I’m sure Ken Eddy (#61) supports your view that I should become more professional, courteous and credible.

You said, ‘This discussion is about fuel prices – not climate change.’

For the tiny minority of people, who you represent, who believe that fossil fuel has nothing to do with climate change, then I suppose this could -just about- be seen as a sincere comment.

However, the vast majority of people in this country understand that there IS a link between our changing climate and the fuel we put in our cars, planes etc + the fuel we use to grow and transport our food.

In May of last year Caroline Lucas, who you say I should learn from, said the following about the subject of this thread: tax;

‘The aim of green taxes is to change behaviour by actively rewarding more environmentally friendly behaviour and to provide an incentive or reward for making less polluting travel choices.’

She went on to say the following, which is direcly relevant to your proclaimed fuel tax action, the subject of this thread;

‘We should scrap [the flat tax proposed by the Labour government on polluting vehicles] altogether and move the responsibility solely onto fuel tax, so that those who choose to drive cars with large engines and are heavy road users will pay considerably more than those who choose to drive smaller, more energy efficient cars and use public transport more often.’

As you feel that I do not deserve a reply to my points (#47) because I am damaging the environmental movement, perhaps you could respond to Caroline Lucas’s point about fuel tax.

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Huw, global tempreture peaked in 1998 – to need to get upto date. CO2 has been increasing, hence there is no correlation between the two – get over it.

I think Caroline Lucas talks about being environmentally friendly, which doesn’t mean that she believes in man-made global warming – like all the fools do.

Suellan made the best comment – sort the economy first and then look at the environment.

PS have you written that letter yet?

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Huw, its you who is making ridiculous remarks. You claim that ‘anti’-global warming research, is only so because it suits who funds the research. Therfore to follow your logic, the Royal Society’s ‘pro’-gloabal warming research reflect the wish of the government who fund it by way of a Parlimentary Grant.

I was merely pointing out the absudity of your previous claims. I see that you can not rebute it and so I draw the inference….err…well, I just don’t know what you think.

However, I believe that all research should be judged on it merits and not who funds it – would you agree?

Oh no, I’ve just asked Huw a straight question! I forgot he doesn’t do straight answers. Still there’s a first time for everything.

PS I am so flattered that you have my first contributions saved in your favourites folder. Oh what happy days, I googled for Shropshire cycling as I like cycling myself, and well the rest is history.

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#55 Suellan Fowler said, ‘The environment probelsm are long running and have more time to be addressed, the poverty and recession situation is now and immediate and therefore takes priority.’

While I agree absolutely with Suellan Fowler that the recession and the rise in joblessness is a priority and demands an immediate and bold response from government, I fundamentally disagree with her that this means we should put the environmental crisis and the peak oil crisis on the back-burner.

If we want our economy to emerge from this crisis stronger, fitter and more prepared for the widely predicted challenges of the 21st century, then government needs to invest in the green economy with the same vision that the Germans have done (see marco’s comment #26 + response #49).

By massively investing in a green industrial revolution, public transport, waste management, energy efficiency, alternative energy generation and investing in educating the next generation to fill the green skills gap, we can start to tackle all three crises at once.

Bailing out the conventional energy industry by reducing fuel tax would only store up more problems for our kids to deal with.

It would also mean that -while other countries will emerge stronger because they have used the crisis to re-structure their economies- we would limp on without a clear strategy.

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Andy (#57) tax is one of the means that governments have to influence behaviour in a progressive direction.

Nobody (lorry drivers, Peter Roberts nor myself) likes being held to ransom by oil companies and fuel prices, which are -as you rightly said – linked to the cost of living.

If we can see that burning this fuel is heating the atmosphere and that a peak oil moment is approaching, when prices will suddenly start rising unstoppably, then let’s break our addiction to fossil fuels and increase our energy security by massively investing in local, renewable electricity generation like the French, the Germans, the Spaniards and the Danes.

As you rightly said, this requires government backing.

But how will government make massive investments and back the technologies which most people can see are the future, if it reduces tax on the fuels, which we are addicted to?

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winja, you asked about the Green New Deal.

It is massive government investment in green, energy-efficient infrastructure which could create one million new jobs in the UK.

If people are interested (and I know you are not), they will read further than you ( http://www.greenparty.org.uk/assets/files/EU_Manifesto_2009.pdf pp6-7 ) and -just maybe- vote for the party proposing it.

Does a democratic mandate not count as a fair deal in your view?

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HUW …

IF you read posts properly you wouldn’t misunderstand what people are saying,

Eg: In #72, you said in reply to me in #59:

“I’m sorry if you think I have hi-jacked this discussion thread, but I -unlike you- believe that fuel tax IS linked to global warming.”
Why exactly do you not see that this is the case?

Now Huw….

So …. “unlike you” …

WHERE do I say, or have said, that I don’t think fuel **tax is linked to global warming??

Actually … it ISN’T **TAX that causes anything!! … it’s the use of the fuel itself that is “claimed” … by way of Co2+heat release during combustion …. that is causing “it” !!

All fuel tax is going to do is maybe alterly peoples use of fuel on a microscopic scale, but tax by itself isn’t “causing” anything!!

The issue if global warming … and its solution …. is way way beyond simplistic “fiddling” with taxes on road fuel even at “national level”.

The solution to global warming is going to be found on a much wider, global scale, and penalising the UK motoring fraternity and economy as a whole…. is NOT going to make one jot of difference to that ultimate solution.

And THAT is what this thread is about – “playing around with fuel tax” … that only ever hits one VERY important section of the community.

So – just to clear things up – I never said I don’t see a link between fuel tax/resultant usage and global warming …

BUT…

What I HAVE said is that this is not the place to discuss global warming !!

So Huw …

Start your own thread on Global Warming …. (as has already been suggested) …. and I’m sure you will get plenty of response !!

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Huw, I gave up reading your comments some time ago as they are far too long and my eyes start to glaze up as soon as your name appears. If you want to get message across may i suggest you use laymans terms and keep your comments in relation to the original thread.
Lucy, please stop winding him up as it just makes him go off on one..

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Huw said “Nobody (lorry drivers, Peter Roberts nor myself) likes being held to ransom by oil companies and fuel prices”

Huw, do you know how much of the price of petrol is taxation? I think you will find that when you take the tax off, the petroleum companies are being very reasonable.

I don’t like being held to ransom by anyone, especially the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But I can do something about that – lets the politicians know and vote accordingly. I can also buy shares in petroleum companies and exert a similar democratic right with them.

This is democracy – it’s not perfect, but it’s better than the other options (just).

As for my personal experience, (and I think these threads should focus on personal experience and not links to this and that, we can google anytime if we are interested) you can shove as much tax on fuel as you like – it won’t make me use public transport. It will still be cheaper for my clients to pay for me to drive to Cumbria, 2 hrs traveling time, 50p per mile, than a whole day on very expensive public transport and hotel bills to meet morning start times. Increase fuel tax and the client passes it on to the consumer. If the consumer doesn’t want to pay, then we both go out of business.

Just what is so difficult about that? That’s business – its tough Huw and I know that you are a salary man so you don’t really have an understanding due to lack of personal experience.

But do let that stop you. Why don’t you invest your pension and savings, and remortage your house in Green Technologies? Hmmmm? Not even Landrover could find investment – the tax pay gave them £20m for research into green technology. Don’t you wonder why Tata didn’t invest with all their cash surplus? Well I will tell you – they know it’s a waste of time, they’ve already looked into it. That £20m was just a political stunt that everyone has had to pay for just to keep a few greenies happy. I mean, Landrover and caring for the environment? Its like asking King Herad to research infant mortality!

The bottom line is the combustion engine is the work horse of our economy due to it being the most efficient and practical power supply that we have met, second to nucleur– without it our economy will collapse.

It’s with interest that despite being a frequent traveler to Germany, you have declined to suggest a better way for me to travel to Wolfsburg. I will be driving and Mr Polar Bear will just have to get his paws wet!

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askeric (#75) I agree with you when you say that ‘the solution to global warming is going to be found on a much wider, global scale’.

As you may know all the world’s governments are meeting in Copenhagen this December to discuss new targets for tackling global warming and to sort out how to wean ourselves off fossil fuels, which we all know endanger our future and the present of 300,000 of our fellow human beings.

To reach those targets governments will have to use all the tools in their armouries to engineer a radical switch to alternative fuels, alternative energy generation etc.

One of those tools is tax.

George Bush recognised that the US was ‘addicted to oil’.

If you are addicted to something which is not good for you and it is making your future less affordable, some people might think it was perhaps better not to make it less expensive.

It will become abundantly clear in the coming years that the countries which embrace the changes quickest and tax parts of the economy which are unsustainable and invest early enough in shifting their manufacturing base to green technologies will have the strongest economies (see Germany).

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John: Would have loved to travel by train as a first choice but Eurostar goes to France not Germany. Best deal I saw was £600 and in Germany the best they can find is E450 – that’s for a month ticket. I need an open ended return, albeit upto a month would suffice, so a plane ticket could cost up to £350 if I changed my return date.

Its only 1600 miles round trip, so that 135 litres of fuel = £135, plus ferry and insurance. Then consider the convienience with stops where ever takes my fancy.

Being ‘green’ really is a no brainer.

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Huw said “As you may know all the world’s governments are meeting in Copenhagen this December to discuss new targets for tackling global warming and to sort out how to wean ourselves off fossil fuels, which we all know endanger our future and the present of 300,000 of our fellow human beings.”

Huw: with 1.5 million casualties in the Somme (and considerable environmental impact) do you think 300,000 people is an issue? Will fuel duty save these people? No it will damage the economy that could help these people. As our economy plummets further into recession you can watch overseas aid dry up.

The next think you will be saying is we should have a military hardware tax to save soldiers lives.

Honestly *tut*

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Huw,

You know the best way to save the population’s petrol is simple….get rid of all the silly 20MPH speed limits and the ones that have dropped to 40MPH and 30MPH from previously being NSL. My car and virtually everyones is far more fuel efficient at 60MPH than 20MPH or 30MPH.

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Lets get back on track! the only way we will get fuel prices down is to use less and force the producers and our greedy govt to reduce the prices and punishing taxes! with ref to the first comments yes we Brits do not do enough to help ourselves! the French and Spanish kick off big style compared to us!

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Huw,

My remaining interest in this thread centres on a proposed “New Deal” by the Greens. Purported, and as yet un-supported, by yourself through links to a EU Green Manifesto.

What , for the third time of asking, is the mutually acceptable “deal” your Party offering to the UK and its incumbent citizens?

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