In 2004 the accident rate for Urban roads was 67 Accidents/ 100million vehicle kilometres travelled,
for Rural roads it was 32
Accidents/100million vehicle kilometres travelled….LESS THAN HALF.

So why do we need restrictions on rural roads when they are MUCH, MUCH safer than urban roads?

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and i predict petrol consumption wll reduce and motorists will have a little more money in their pockets. well done council and advance the cause of salopia

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Reducing speed limits will not stop people driving faster than they should only stiffer penalties will slow them down.. the current 60 mph limit is openly flouted by many drivers often dangerously hence the accidents.. Also inexperienced drivers driving higher performance cars and modified cars need to be better educated or restricted to lower performance vehicles for the first two years or so.

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Its not just people that speed that cause accidents. What about people that drive at 30-40mph constant whether their on an urban area or rural road. They break the speed limit in every village, but travel far to slow on rural roads. If they don’t like driving to the speed limit of 60 or just under perhaps they shouldn’t be driving on our roads. This type of person often presses their brakes sharp every time a car passes them on the other side of the road even when there is plenty of room. I bet People like these cause more accidents as their nervousness is forcing people to overtake in risky places because it’s safer than staying behind them.

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Hannah is correct, it often annoys me that I drive at 60 on a national speed limit road only to come across the worlds safest driver in front of me that is doing only 40MPH. The worlds safest driver also does 40MPH through towns and villages, has no awareness of anything else going on around them and certainly hasn’t used their mirrors and seen a car behind them.

Want to cut road deaths….. ?
1. Make the test harder, its far too easy in this country.
2. Regular health assessments, including proper vision tests, speed of reaction tests and driving related mental awareness tests!
3. Everyone to retake driving test every 5 years….. anyone scared? Maybe you shouldn’t be driving!
4. Accept that speed is a symptom, but what is the cause… why do we speed? Is it because of the middle lane hoggers causing congestion on motorways making us late for appointments? Or is is just because we like driving fast? Target the CAUSE of speeding!
5. Accurately document and publish the true causes of accidents and use them to educate people. Poor observation anyone?….
6. Make all car drivers ride a motorbike for a few weeks, that will teach them what observation is, what mirrors are for and how to read the road!

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Well…

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it AGAIN!

EVERYTIME there is an article on these columns about speed, it ALWAYS gets a huge response, and this one is no exception.

And YET AGAIN, we see little support for the measures proposed.

What we DO see is several intelligent posts talking about real reasons for the problems on our roads.

I just wonder who the powers that be really consult. I wonder also if they ever read these columns.

Oh … and by the way, With regard to the comments regarding those who drive at a constant 40MPH etc

Several years ago, I coined the Phrase “Unispeeder” – to describe the incredibly irriating breed of drivers that drive at a constant ** 40 odd miles per hour irrespective of the limits, in or out if town etc.
(** Actually I reckoned it was actually 43.7 Mph based on 100′s of observations over many months !!)
I also coined the Phrase: “gaggle” … to describe the snaking queue of vehicles, almost always following FAR to close to each other (thus preventing safe ovetaking by ANYONE) behind a unispeeder on the open road ….

And finally I Also coined the Phrase “sub -conscious accelerator” … to describe the “incredibly dangerous” actions of the unispeeder who mysteriously speeds up as you start to overtake the unispeeder.

I put this “effect” down, not to malcious intent, but (becuase it happpens so often),
rather more due to: the unispeeder genuinely believing they’ve slowed down as their view from the RHS now contains a “slowly moving vehicle” * (* difference in speed between the two vehicles) instead of the road scenery moving by at the original unispeed.
Hence the offender accelerates!!

So…. The answer to all this

Ah well, just make everyone drive to the lowest common denominator . Simples!!
(Apologies to comparethemeerkats.com)

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I wish I could contribute something useful to this thread, but I fear I can’t as Hannah, askeric, and Big Matty have covered most of the bases.

Although we were talking about this subject (well, speed cameras actually, but it’s nearly the same thing) in the office today, and I suggested that this incessant bleating and bellyaching about speed cameras and lower speed limits over the last decade is now more about “consistency” in council policies, rather than saving any lives. The “speed kills” dogma has been trawled out so many times over the last 10 – 15 years that – despite proven statistical evidence (STATS19 Report from the DfT) and established analytical protocols (Regression To The Mean anomaly) – this message cannot now be retracted; it must be consistent.

Of course, media hysteria regarding anything whatsoever to do with speed, which then filters down to – and fuels the bile of – car haters and poor drivers, merely provides the chumps in power who actually believe the speed kills nonsense to sit back with a smug look on their face. When in reality, the 70% or so of drivers who REALLY drive, and REALLY do the miles on all types of roads (like me @ 20,000+ per year, and of course eric) can see first hand that lower speed limits and the installation of enforcement cameras do little to mitigate drugged drivers, or uninsured drivers, or banned drivers, or those drivers with as much road sense as road kill.

Roadcraft teaches us, quite rightly, that a speed limit is just that; a limit. Not a target. But if that limit is consistently dumbed down then that IMO will breed more dumb drivers. And goodness knows, there’s enough of them out there already.

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Keith (3) it may only be 6% of accidents that have speed as a contributory factor however with the 1000′s of accidents each year this is still a vast number, plus higher speeds cause far more injury and death than lower speed, saving just one life is admirable – this could save money – I only wish there was as much public concern for dealing with speeders as there is for swine flu. One day it is my hope that speeding will be as culturally unacceptable as drink driving or not wearing a safety belt is now – it took some time to change peoples attitudes however we are better off for it, and we know we will need to deal with the naysayers – we did with those who didnt think it a problem to down a few pints and drive home and we can do it again to change the minds of those who feel speeding is acceptable.

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I didnt think it would take long before we recieved a response from someone unable to form their own opinion based on evidence and opinions presented.

TC, im sure none of us here would disagree that INAPPROPRIATE speed can be dangerous and should be punished by the courts. What we are saying though is that the vast funds that are spent on anti-speeding campaigns could be better focussed on other schemes that will improve road safety much more effectively.

Is doing 90MPH on a clear dry motorway, in a new car in good weather conditions dangerous?

Is doing 60MPH on a national speed limit road in the wet dangerous?

One is speeding the other is not…. As a motorcyclist I can admit to driving very safely on empty motorways in Europe at speeds way in excess of UK speed limits. I have also ridden within the speed limit as an inexperienced motorcyclist and been considerably more at risk.

Just watch people driving within the speed limit on national speed limits, (usually old people) braking ON corners, not before… but while going around the corner. This is dangerous, yet I have never seen it mentioned on TV advertising. Braking on the corner because they are only looking 2 metres (yards for the oldies) in front of their car that they are prepared to unsettle the balance of the car on often wet roads. Observation, understanding of vehicle dynamics, grip, reading the road etc etc.

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6.Andy said….

” Listen to the Police – they probably know a thing or two as they record accident statistics prior to them being ‘weighted’ to support whatever message is flavour of the month. I also believe that the Police themselves objected to 2 of the recent speed limit changes imposed by the Council but were ignored.”

Yes all you councils out there. WHY,WHY,WHY do you regularly ignore the Police’s advice when dropping so many of these speed limits?

Do you think that you know better sat in your smug little offices?
Well you don’t!!!

The police travel the roads for their entire shift every week while on duty, do you not think that they know better than you what a safe speed is for any given stretch of road, do they not attend road accidents and find out what causes them?

IF the police say that a speed limit drop is NOT neccessary,why, why why do you ignore them?

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tc said:

“….saving one life is admirable”.

Let’s ban staircases then, shall we? If just ONE life is saved from not falling down a set of stairs, that must be a good thing.

tc, get some perspective for goodness’ sake.

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brian 2, in answer to #20, the police have consulted the public about the issue which they are most concerned about in their local area ( http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/02/13/poll-reveals-fears-on-speeding/ ).

The police discovered that this issue was … speeding traffic.

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Huw,

Ref comment 24,

People always think that people are speeding but mainly it is in their own imagination because they cannot judge the speed of traffic.

Residents of Admaston were complaining about speeding traffic for years and when the police finally did a check, the average speed was only about 26MPH….enough said!

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Huw,

Brake are a joke, they only give half the facts and their “facts” are misleading , because of this, as you found out when you tried quoting Dept for Transport Guidlines (2006)using Brake’s “facts” instead of the actual full facts, as to be found in official papers.

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Hi Tc.

First of all, I asked you if you would give us your definitions of “speed” and “speeding” Would you be prepared to do this in straight, simple terms? – AS I don’t think we’ve seen that yet.

I think also you have defeated your own argument for lower speed limits where you say:

(In response to my claim that 20mph in Bridgnorth high street on a saturday morning might be dangerous)

You said:

“whilst driving within the legal speed limit, I would be breaking other laws, such as driving with due care and attention, wreckless endangerment, etc, so it is illegal to drive at an inappropriate speed.”

So …

IF you are correct in this assertion, THEN there is NO need to reduce the speed limit!! There are already more than enough rules in place!

UNLESS of course, the REAL objective here is to make it EASIER to penalise motorists in “such a situation” for “excess speed” rather than more difficult to prove transgressions?

SPEED which as we ALL know, is MUCH easier to measure, even by “remote” means,(And CHEAPER means i.e Cameras etc ) than trying to prove “driving without due care” etc!!

So it seems, what this is ALL REALLY ABOUT is:

Reducing the speed limit is the easy “cop out” option, and is also a much easier “box to tick” on “risk assessment /risk reduction” forms so as to make it look like “we” are doing something “postive”.

Also Tc, your arguments about debris in the road etc are in my opinion spurious. That could happen anywhere, at any speed.
“Reaction times” are ONLY valid AFTER you’ve spotted the hazard, so …. good OBSERVATION and reading the road ahead are perhaps more important, becuase even with excellent reaction times, it’s better to adopt defensive driving techniques to spot and avoid problems in the first place!

And Finally …

I’m not advocating no speed limits at all, but Tc, you seem not to understand that people like me, brian2 Big Matty, Andy, Hannah et al are experienced drivers (I’ve travelled WELL OVER 800,000 miles, over 44 years, in several different countries, and in several different vehicles), and … all we are asking is that an intelligent response is made to the problems on our roads.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again … NO-ONE has EVER asked me what I think!! – so tell me .. Who ARE the powers that be consulting? Surely a lifetimes experience on the road is worth something don’t you think?

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Can I just point out that the reduction in speed limits is nation wide and is laid down in the document at http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/strategytargetsperformance/tomorrowsroadssaferforeveryo4866
There’s reference to safety this, that and the other, its pretty much aimed at the motorist having to take full responsibility (in my mind anyway) so I emailed them and pointed out that they need to also provide proper training and education for their highways dept personnel so that guidelines that are currently in place are adhered to, that they shouldn’t allow parish councils to suggest speed limits without proper consultation and that the physical structures of roads be maintained to a decent standard before they start imposing unnecessary speed limits.

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Rob, would you not agree that a majority of local people polled by West Mercia Police believe that speeding cars are a priority issue for them?

Would you also not agree that parish councils are doing nothing more than articulating this majority view?

It would be great if some respect could be shown to concepts like democracy in debates like this, wouldn’t it?

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Huw,

If you want democracy then perhaps the road surveys done should be taken note of.

The average road survey on a NSL road records that the average speed is over 50MPH. So by dropping the speed limit to 50MPH, or below, is not democratic in taking into consideration the average driver or the majority of drivers.

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Would just like to say that I have been doing my for international harmony and have been touring the UK with a German pal.

I’m afraid Johnny Foreigner just can’t understand our driving.

On the motorway, she couldn’t understand why I was going past everyone doing less than 80mph when it was clear and safe. Upon pointing out that it was in fact myself breaking the law, she just couldn’t understand why we are restricted to 70mph on clear motorways.

She was equally bemused as to why we paint speed cameras yellow. I explained that is so we can see them and slow down – a concept very alien as the Germans paint their grey or green.

And then there are the signs warning of unmarked police cars. Again Johnny Foreigner can’t understand why motorised are forewarned of a covert operation.

And finally mobile phones while driving. In Germany you would be arrested! I tried to explain that its equally illegal here, but we just don’t bother, which begged the question why did we pass the law.

My point is that the UK is pathetic when it comes to rules of the road ad safety. We introduce good measures, then mess them up. So we then have to think of another half baked idea, and so it goes on, and this proposal will not be the last.

Its all pandering to public perception and not tackling the issues.

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TC said,

“it’s nigh on impossible to legislate for driving conditions and indivduals performance – therefore let’s have speed limits, and enforce them….or are you advocating no speed limits at all? ” ……

Surely you have just contradicted yourself by saying a speed limit legislates for no individuals driving ability.

Let’s do away with speed limits and if you have an accident and the POLICE, not mrs Jones, prove that you were using excessive speed and that was the cause of the accident, you should have a ban, which is pretty much how the Austrians treat drink driving, you get breathalised if you have an accident and any alcohol is a ban so if you drink , you drive carefully.

Same with speed, everyone has different capabilities so if you exceed those capabilities and cause an accident, then you should pay the consequences.

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What an interesting exchange! I think the debate about the Police Poll is slightly misleading in as much as the vast majority of those polled would be in urban areas and 30mph limits. I haven’t read any posts that are advocating an increase in those residential area speed limits – either here or in Press Releases from the ABD or ‘Safe Speed’. There is an issue with an increasing number of artificially low limits of 40mph on some roads but the central debate initially was regarding a reduction from the National speed limit of 60mph on single carriagway rural roads to 50mph by a group of well meaning but essentially ignorant officials and politicians. As shown time and time again, inattention, distraction, failing to judge another vehicles speed and/or distance, failing to judge road conditions, driving too close etc are far greater contibutors to accidents than ‘speed’ on it’s own so why are we not addressing these issues with the same zeal as speed? A very good move might be to make roads safer and to reinstate a dedicated Police Traffic Division to ‘educate’ the 94% of people who cause accidents without ever exceeding a speed limit!

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