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Letter: Funny how definitions can differ
Monday 29th June 2009, 7:50AM BST.
Letter: I am fascinated by the way different groups of people can interpret the English language in different ways. Take the simple phrase “reasonable force”.
A police officer’s reasonable force can include repeated body punches and multiple applications of 50,000 volts from a taser.
As a homeowner I am able to use reasonable force to expel an intruder but I am expected to adopt the least amount of force needed.
I must ask them to leave and make a judgement as to what is reasonable when my main concern is to protect my property and loved ones.
I am sure the police would prosecute me if I gave the intruder a good thumping and blasted him senseless with an electric probe.
Funny old world, isn’t it?
Jon Lakin
Shrewsbury
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The only person who can judge “reasonable force” is the person at the scene.All other opinions are just that”Opinions”
However those people trained in delivering reasonable force are perhaps less in fear of their life than the unsuspecting and often vulnerable victim who simply lashes out in fright,a natural instinct.
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any intruder will be rendered unconcious by the easiest possible method.Finer legal points can be argued later!Better than having a crippled/dead spouse and thug with 6 months community service.
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I could not agree more with Jon Lakin’s post here, yet another case of dual standards and “Do as I say, not do as I do” attitude.
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Couldnt agree more with the letter writer. The whole incident he mentioned show the police in a very poor light. When the introduction of the tazer was brought about it was said to be as a last resort??. It seems when something like this occurs and is caught on camera no charges are ever brought against the person who is being zapped , punched what ever, why is that??.
The police and any person doing anything wrong for that matter surley should be aware in this age of camera phones, cctv, they will be filmed and made accountable for their actions. I remenber being burgled many years ago and being told by the police officer if they come back and you catch them you will be prosecuted if you use excessive force. Well from what i saw and have heard a police officer was hit the person ressisted arrest by 4 police officers and the result of that was zapped a few times and upper body (neck) punched. This is why i am afraid i would never condone arming the whole of the police service keep it as armed responce teams only epecially if they are trigger happy with a tazer.
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A few years ago my husband worked away during the week leaving me on my own for four nights out of seven. I was lucky and had no problems, but what do you do if someone breaks in while you’re on your own? It’s scary because if the intruder threatens you and you protect yourself and injure the intruder, they can take you to court for assault. Is the world mad? Does no one ask the question ‘why was the intruder in the house to start with?’ How can someone afraid for their life have the tables turned on them and end up on the wrong side of the law with a criminal record? Just don’t get me started….
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Reasonable force may well be a difficult and non exact concept however I feel that I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
People should know that they have the right to defend themselves and also have the intelligence to say the correct things to the police when the level of force is questioned. Unfortunately people are very stupid and want to exagerate their emotions and actions. Revenge is not reasonable force and justification for them breaking in cannot be to hurt or kill. If in doubt do not speak until you have spoken to a lawyer.
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I live on my own and if I came upon an intruder in my home I would arm myself. I would not attack first but if the intruder came after me I would let rip with whatever I had armed myself with. I pay taxes to provide me with security in the form of a police force if they’re not there to do the job I will. I will not be intimidated in my own home by some snotty nosed smack head who is allowed to walk away time after time by the courts. This would not be my example of reasonable force but more appropriately self defence
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Well said David. For myself, I just say this, if someone breaks into my place whilst I am about, one of us is going to be very, very, severely injured, irrespective of the circumstances, broken window, forced door, down the chimney or whatever, and if it is not me that is injured, then I won’t be opening my mouth to the Police until a Solicitor is sitting next to me in the interview room.
If you want my legal advise, beat the living daylights out of him until he can’t run or stand, call the Police, tell them you found him in your house then clam up and demand a solicitor.
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Perhaps it would be useful for Mr Public to know a basic run down on levels of force
1.Verbal communication
2.Hands on,perhaps ushering somebody,arm restraints etc
3.CS spray
4.Taser
5.Use of batons
6.Deadly force i.e firearms
This is a simplistic view but as you can see a taser is by no means the most dangerous weapon in the ‘armoury’, let me just say if ever I needed to draw my baton (truncheon) it meant someone was going to get hurt because when I used it I only ever went for the body areas we were trained to hit,arms and legs, but by god if I was going to need to hit them I really put some effort into it.
Their choice, if they wanted to attack me they could at least expect a visit to the local A&E.
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Craig I think makes the point for the letter writer, we are however expected to use the minimum force and do not have the training or the armoury available to the police. The police it seems are allowed to use punishing force.
I do not think the police and the courts would look kindly on a homeowner who said he broke into my house and threatened me, so I decided to send him to hospital, it was his choice.
I do not think the police would look kindly on someone who actually retained any sort of armoury for the purpose of their own protection thus the concept of the right of self protection has been undermined.
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Andrew@4: That is why, on 16th February 2009, it became a criminal offence to take a photo or video footage of a police officer, whether in uniform or not.
Jacqui Smith’s Counter Terrorism Act 2008 is the appropriate instrument and, as you’d expect, is now able to used by the Police on any occasion that they become aware of embarrassing situation being caught on film.
Like the 80 year old arrested for barracking Jack Straw in the Labour party conference, or like the seizing of Iceland’s assets by declaring all of Iceland to be a haven for terrorists, another piece of “anti-terror” legislation brought in by the Labour government and used against British citizens in an effort to hide the excesses of state control.
That is why many such films caught on phone cams are submitted “anonymously”, to avoid the possibility of receiving the maximum 10 year sentence.
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To be honest paranoid has some argument however he is talking an (abuse of power) and i belive the photograhing of police is ilegal if their is a security issue and the pictures are used for terrorism etc that is when you will get your prison sentence and quite right too.
Where the abuse is ,is if the pictures are removed to cover up a wrong doing, and i cant immagine a court would not want to see the pictures in question should an individual be brought to trial for taking pictures of a police officer outside a nightclub involved in a brawl after all it is on cctv also.
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The governments laws on self protection came into force on July 15th last year:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/newsrelease150708a.htm
I have a leaflet describing more of this in detail which was published online by the DCA (now the Ministry Of Justice) titled 01_02_05_intruder.pdf but I can longer find it online, however it can still be accessed from the BBC archives at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/01_02_05_intruder.pdf
This in fact gives you the right to kill an intruder if you have no other option – but I guess you’d spend a while in the police station while the facts were being established.
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Andrew; I believe you will find the wording is -if the images could be useful for terrorists and I believe criminals etc. In that context any image could be useful in identifying a police officer if it fell into the wrong hands. You do not need to be a terrorist or criminal for the prohibition to be effective because the police will use this law as justification for an arrest. You would be arrested held for a few days, the images destroyed and then the charges would be dropped.
You would be punished by the system for taking a photograph of a policemen even though it might only be 4 days in prison. And if you were really unlucky you might well be arrested by an officer who thinks you need a visit to the local hospital.
Given that the courts will always take the word of a police officer over that of a member of the public because they assume the officer has no reason to lie, the intrusive modern media, has to a certain extent limited police freedom of action, where before the public had no evidence, they can now often produce film of an event.
When we already have several instances of policemen not wearing collar tags to prevent identification and numerous cases – before the introduction of this law – where the police have gained a bad name by harassing photographers; even professional press photographers, have been detained. There is clearly something wrong with a police service that is so camera shy, I think the public should be very concerned about these developments, which go hand in hand with the erosion of the idea of policing by consent and the Peelian principals for the police we erroneously believe to be still in place.
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Anyone who chooses to try and gain access to my property whilst I am present will get a very nasty surprise. I am prepared to use what ever means that I have to hand necessary to protect my home and my family.
I am also prepared to accept the punishment that the law of this land is ready to dish out as a result of my actions.
My home and my family come first !
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