Plea for trams, not a new road
Tuesday 16th June 2009, 12:09PM BST.
Shrewsbury should be served by an £80 million continental-style tram system which could help slash congestion and remove the need for the controversial North West Relief Road, it was claimed today.
Councillor Mansel Williams, former chairman of Shrewsbury’s three railway liaison committees, said he would be tabling a motion to the new Shropshire Council as soon as possible about his idea. The tram system would link the town centre with various suberbs.
Councillor Williams said he believed it could help transform Shrewsbury’s public transport system.
He said he believed the proposal would cost a similar amount to the North West Relief Road but would be more environmentally friendly and more effective in reducing traffic within the town centre.
Councillor Williams said: “I want to get involved in the problems with congestion and air quality that we are suffering from in Shrewsbury and I am wanting to explore the possibility of a light rail system that would be a rapid form of transportation.
“Shrewsbury is surrounded by railway lines and it’s also got a railway station in the town centre.
“There are now possibilities of exploring tram-train ideas because if we are talking about spending £70 or £80 million on a NWRR, which might or might not be a solution and won’t come into fruition for many years, this might be a good idea.”
Councillor Williams said the tram system could link Shrewsbury town centre and other suburbs such as Meole Brace and Harlescott as well as the town’s Prostar Stadium. He said it could also link with outlying villages such as Baschurch and Hadnall to provide better access.
Councillor Williams said: “It’s a vision but it certainly ought to be tabled and that is what I intend doing. I am going to be putting this forward at the earliest opportunity.”
In February ideas for a £15 million parkway railway station in Harlescott was included in a county transport growth report which suggested one could be built within the next 20 years.
By Russell Roberts
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Cool… bring it on!
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Excellent idea, I’ve seen the tram system in Nottingham which links car parks outside the city allowing people to travel easily into the City centre….
Not sure it will help with reducing the flow of traffic wanting to get elsewhere other than the centre of the town though unless it linked the Retail parks on the outskirts of town as well…..Well worth exploring further though?
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You might have to wait a while for a tram – but I reckon there’ll be a Huw Peach along in a minute…..
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Trams, yes and for Telford too – lets get sensible about how we reduce car use and not just punish car drivers, but just make it easier/cheaper for most.
Run a tramline into the lower part of Shrewsbury town and tramlines from Telfords centres alongside the dual carriageways.
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What a rediculous idea!
The Northern Relief Road is needed for all kinds of transport and the Tram is not the answer.
YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS?
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fair play to the man its a good idea – im not sure about the town centre though because the medieval look must be preserved and electric cables and tracks would effect this, but outside the town centre a brilliant idea. Start with the park and ride – replace those dirty buses. Glad to see some members are worried about the environment, that Conservative lot who voted against making climate change a priority for the council should hang their head in shame and beg david cameron for forgiveness when shrewsbury floods again
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…and pray tell where all the electric is coming from to power this? Presumably not from the incinerator that has been roundly criticised by a whole .75% of the towns population who registered concerns. Do you realise that with £80m you could buy near on 27,000 silver plates to commemorate the excesses of SABC?
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Oh Dear! is he really serious about this? Will the tram link the A458 Welshpool rd with Battlefield? And how pray will it deal with the lorries and commercial vehicles that either trek through town or short cut through inadequate rural lanes? Glad to see the new council is still full of hair-brained ideas – nothing changes!
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I’d love to see tram systems in Telford and Shrewsbury but it just won’t happen. If even Birmingham the second biggest city in the UK has had to wait more than 10 years for an extension to its tram line and Liverpool and Leeds had their proposals scrapped altogether what chance do two relatively insignificant little towns in Shropshire stand?
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a low carbon future for the UK is esential if we are to avoid BILLIONS of pounds of weather related chaos from man made climate change
Lets invest in low carbon transport now and lead the world in another profitable industrial revolution into green technology like we did in the 1800′s
Well said Cllr Williams, make this man head of transport in the new cabinet re-shuffel
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The North end of Shrewsbury has been waiting forever for the North West relief road, traffic through Ditherington Road, Whitchurch Road and Ellesmere Road to and from Town is horrific. Why not create a scheme where the North West relief road can be built and the tram scheme and perhaps a new Bus Garage can be intergrated into that?
But I assume that because the scheme is not being inflicted upon the South side of town, the people will be ignored whether they want the scheme or not.
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Aran likes this! i think it be really quaint & fit in wiv the concept of shrewsbury being quite the tourist attraction. prob a joke that it would be any sort of replacment 4 the releif road but its a nice idea all the same
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I don’t quite see the logic of trams?
A “relief road” provides a facility for all forms of traffic, and indeed, surely provides for traffic NOT intending to go via Shrewsbury, to by-pass the town altogether, thus “relieving” the Town of that Traffic.
Trams on the other hand only provide passenger carriage – and then only “into” town via the tram route(s).
So therefore, whereas the road benfefits ALL , to many different locations, the tram only serves a narrow section of the travelling public, to specific locations.
So … unless I’m missing something, where’s the benefit of this?
The tram might be more “green” in terms of “it’s” actual emission (zero at the point of utilization of electricity assuming they are electrically powered) … BUT, the electricity HAS to come from somewhere….. and that at the moment isn;t neccessarily “green”.
And finally, how would I carry all my “tools of the trade” on a tram ??? -
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Is this man on the same planet as sane people.
Anybody who seriously thinks that this is a starter is stark staring bonkers. A million things must be considered and half of them would not make this daft idea possible.
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a good call
not the only solution but a good one
we must have a package of measures against congestion though not just trams but some cycling, walking and yes some investment for cars in new roads, roundabouts traffic lights and speed restrictions which can smooth out flow so help too
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At last, a sensible idea, but only in conjunction the NRR. Of course, it will never happen. This is afterall Shrewsbury we are talking about.
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Trams for Shrewsbury ?, now that DOES sound a really good idea. It can’t come soon enough !.
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I love trams. Been to the Tram Museuem in Derbyshire, riden on trams in Blackpool and Christchurch NZ.
However, can trams make it up Wyle Cop?
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Hsa this councillor not heard of the countless millions spent on feasability studies on tram systems in such massive cities like LEEDSonly for the Govt to refuse funding then have anotherstudy started then nothing built.In parts of MANCHESTER i know of tennants who had pre compulsary purchase orders through their letter boxes over 20 yrs ago and the houses are still standing.This is on the proposed Droylsden to Ashden u line route which yet again has not received Govt funding.Nice idea for Shrewsbury but it would be at the end of a very long line of transport ideas so forgetit.Can just imagine the mass of fruitless arguments.Latest city to suffer is Edinburgh ,had to cut back on proposed Tram routes
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Trams won’t work in Shrewsbury any better than buses do- to get from Sundorne to the hospital you’d still go through town, no doubt with at least one change. Look at the roads first- not just the NWRR but other things wrong with the town’s traffic system (Coton Hill to Smithfield Road avoiding the bridges anyone? It must be possible!).
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i assume these trams will be big enough to carry 44 ton volvos, scanias, leyland dafs, man’s mercedes etc. what a silly idea. build this northern bypass now and if you want to play with trams, how about some horse drawn trams around the town to supplement the park and ride.
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how typical of a Labour councillor to suggest more taxes for wasteful social projects like trains, this is Shropshire, we are rural people we are motorist, we demand a road is built NOW, get this Labour government and their greenie leftie cycling friendly agenda out now and lets get back to building roads to relieve congestion and allow more development for small businesses like me who are burdened by EU regulations and Clowns taxes
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How, exactly, will the trams enter and negotiate Shrewsbury town centre?
Over the English and Welsh Bridges? Over Greyfriars Bridge? Porthill Suspension Bridge perhaps? How will it get up and down Wyle Cop? Imagine all those unsightly gantries and overhead power cables defacing the town centre!
The councillor is obviously not tied together with the correct string…..
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why cant we all just travel less instead ?
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Not convinced Shrewsbury is suitably for trams would need to see some plans/artistic impressions, still think we need a NRR
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What the heck, it’s an idea to kick around. Trams might take out a heap of short-run commuter cars in some places (so less car parking required). I guess the NRR is needed, but Dan, why don’t you travel less and begin the process.
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Why do people need to go through the town center to get to the hospital? Drive along the A5 from battlefield roundabout, takes you around the town. Why not encourage everyone to do this instead of building a new road.
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Erm where exactly is this tram going to fit in!? I mean it could probably work on Smithfield Road if you lost a lane. But unless you ban all cars in the town i don’t see where else it could go!!
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Errmm…where does the figure of £80m come from? The latest cost for the tram line in Edinburgh (a single line from the airport to Leith) is £714m.
This councillor is barking….
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It’s good to hear elected councillors from the new Shropshire Council thinking outside the box and getting forward-looking, sustainable ideas like this discussed locally, which take the challenge of climate change seriously.
Towns in Shropshire, the rest of Britain and throughout the world are going to have to be innovative and embrace low-carbon solutions to transport problems, because of the looming prospect of peak oil and the moral and ecological imperative of cutting carbon emissions by 90% by 2050.
Trams have proved to be a tremendous success in other towns that have introduced them, (Croydon and Paris recently) as they have provided people needing to travel short distances with a safe, affordable, practical and convenient alternative to the car.
I don’t know the exact details of this proposal, but I do see it as a constructive addition to the debate, which I would like to find out more about.
Well done, Councillor Williams.
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It amazes me to read some of the comments such as how will a tram go up a hill like Wyle Cop and over bridges.I REMEMBER trams in Stockport carrying 80 plus pass up gradients twice as steep,why did they get rid of them,over bridges no problem.They can almost turn 90 degrees over railway bridges as down in Croyden South London but are costly and mainly ugly to install
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Trams in Shrewsbury ? You have to be kidding, the streets are not wide enough for a start. Anyone considering this idea should visit Edinburgh, where the whole city centre is full of road works for a tram system very few of us want. Then you will see the upheaval you would be letting yourselves in for !
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Kevin Hardy said:-
“I REMEMBER trams in Stockport carrying 80 plus pass up gradients twice as steep,why did they get rid of them,over bridges no problem.”
This get’s dafter. Where in this country is a hill in a town centre “twice as steep” as the Cop. Certainly nowhere that I know and I have been to Stockport. It would have to be “vertical,” straight up. This Councillor said that he wants a tram system from a number of suburbs into the “town centre”. We must assume therefore, that a tram, up/down the Cop is amongst one of the things for discussion. If not then the whole charade get’s more idiotic as the system would not include the whole of the south side of the town.
The steepest hill I have been up in a “motorised car” is The Peak in Hong Kong, it is single track and has winding gear at the top, who knows, perhaps we could block the junction of Dogpole/Wyle Cop/High Street, put the winding gear on a gantry outside the Lion Hotel front door and then let it continue along High Street to all points north, west and east. Come on guy’s, what are the qualifications to be a Councillor, if coming up with outlandish, idiotic ideas like this is one of them, then Councillor Williams appears to be over qualified.
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i also think the northern bypass should be built and while they are at it let us see some money going into the restoration of the shrewsbury arm of the shropshire union canal. now when that is built it really will relieve traffic. it may sound old hat but the canals in this country will soon have a successful commercial future and we have to thank preservationist for largely restoring most of them over the last 60 years. well done guys give yourselves a pat on the back!
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Nice idea, but trams won’t be able to access the actual town centre as the gradients are too steep, the English and Welsh Bridges won’t take the weight and can you imagine the mayhem around the railway station junctions witn trams as well as the current traffic congestion? And in Frankwell, Mardol and the like?
Trams don’t solve through traffic issues anyway.
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Trams???? BONKERS BONKERS and it will happen when i become king of england and i do not see that happening soon.
I say Ban the buses from the town, Ban cars, AND Ban solo cyclists and introduce rickshaws if that is how you spell it.
Get all the fat unemployed people to pull them it will help them get fit and the other unemployed can wash them and run behind with peoples shopping.And we can then get rid of the carparks in the town centre and build some low cost houseing available to the poor single parents and the like the multi could be used as an asylum centre we must look to the future i am sure the town centre residents will give their backing to these great forward thinking ideas.
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Lucy W – your tram riding has obviously not extended to San Fransisco. The steepness of the roads there makes Wyle Cop look like a small incline.
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im glad some cllors care about the environment atleast – i moved to shrewsbury to live in a peacful semi rural green area not have more roads and houses and plastic concrete estates eating up our precious green wedge urban lung
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To Stuart ,not exactly measured the steepness of the gradient up Lancashire Hill towards Reddish but its the best part of amile and a lot steeper than Wyle Cop and if ancient trams could manage that then wee Shrewsbury ,no problem.Brought back memories of going up a similiar steep bank Stepping Hill with trams bursting with football fans 25,000 plus to watch Stockport County play
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Wyle Cop too steep? Poor San Francisco, I wonder how on earth they could possibly manage it there…
It’s a shame we haven’t got any engineers in Shropshire….. you’ll have to come up with a better excuse than hills.
And I suppose the bus station isn’t in the town centre then, from some of the definitions on this post? The town centre is more than Pride Hill and Wyle Cop. If buses can get in, why not trams? I’d rather be stuck behind a tram running off overhead cables than behind a bus belching out fumes because it hasn’t been serviced in ages.
It’s a nice idea, but sending trams through town isn’t going to stop the people whose route is further afield from the edges of Shrewbury – driving straight through town is sometimes the quickest option.
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Those living in the town would have very big issues with the kind of infrastructure required for trams. The streets are not wide enough.
I got knocked by the wing mirror of a van when walking up the Wyle Cop once, very painful.
Perhaps Cllr Williams would like to donate the near enough £600 he claimed for travelling costs last year? I did not realise riding a bike could be so expensive!
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Would this really work in Shrewsbury? Possibly in certain areas not contained within the river loop, but in the town centre I can’t see how.
For a start there’s the problem of the steep inclines such as Wyle Cop which has already been mentioned. Yes, I’m fully aware of the San Francisco example, but unless I’m mistaken, doesn’t their system work on some kind of pulley mechanism? I do of course stand to be corrected, but how on earth will that be built into an already crowded town centre?
Assuming that problem is overcome, there is then the question of the actual tram cars. I too have been on trams in NZ, Hong Kong, USA and a number of European cities. Those built to tackle steep gradients are generally made up of a single vehicle in my experience, working on pulleys, whilst the European and US “super trams” tend to be two cars or more in length working from unattractive overhead cables. I don’t know about anybody else, but I wouldn’t wish to risk attempting a trip up Wyle Cop in the latter, even if some way were found to make this possible.
It’s no good getting hung up on the green issue all the time either because, as already stated, the power to make them operate has to come from somewhere. Maybe from one of the Government’s new coal fired power stations rumoured to be close to construction. Surely a far wiser investment would be to plough funding into new fleets of eco buses of the type which run on natural gas, and recently introduced in Scandanavia and America.
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I was under the impression that Sheffield was quite hilly too yet their Supertram seems to function alright.
As for the overhead cables, they’re not that ugly really, they are no worse than telephone lines strung between buildings.
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modern trams will make light work of wyle cop. i am not putting the case for modern trams as there is insuffient room for them. in polperro in cornwall in their narrow streets they have a fleet of converted milk floats which carry about 12 passengers. now can you imagine a fleet of say 12 milk floats travelling around the town, cheap to buy, cheap to convert and cheap to run. i see it now the floreat salopia trams.
get the cars out of town and run the trams in conjunction with the park and ride. come on arriva start converting milk floats!!
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Mark (#42), surely a sensible way for our political representatives to
a) demonstrate that they are serious about making the substantial urgently-needed greenhouse gas reductions that they have committed to
b) respond to widely predicted phemomena like peak oil (or peak gas)
-is to shift the central emphasis of transport policy away from endless road-building and fossil-fuelled private transport to green-powered public transport (maybe you are right about the buses).
-and (as for where our electricity comes from) to be more muscular, committed (and perhaps bloody-minded) about kicking dinosaur projects like Kingsnorth into touch and getting thousands of local, community-owned renewable energy projects off the ground. (See Greenpeace EfficienCity animation on its website for a taster).
The fact that Labour politicians in Shrewsbury are being radical in their vision is profoundly encouraging to me and (I would imagine) to others who recognise the imperative of a low-carbon future.
***
On reflection, Mark, I think your idea about green, clean buses is better than anyone’s including Mansel Williams (though his contribution is thought-provoking).
EITHER £100m for a carbon-pumping NWR road OR £80m for a big, probably inappropriate infrastructure project is a false dilemma.
Why not just spend a fraction of the money on
a) encouraging more walking, cycling and car-sharing
b) investing in new, clean buses and
c) subsidizing the fares to encourage people out of their cars
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