Rubbish nobody has sold any one out . LEARN TO BE COMPETATIVE AND CONSINE THE WORD OF THE IDLE (STRIKE) TO THE PAST.

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“The Labour Party has sold out the British working class in favour of a globalized financial federal Europe, with the silent backing of the trade unions”.

Brown and the Labour Party haven’t just sold the “working class” out. They have sold out every man, woman and child in this country. If things continue as they are, our country is going to sink as a tidal wave of new arrivals from every corner of the globe is thrust upon us.
A recent Channel 5 programme showed an instance where a drunken crowd of young men were fighting and brawling in a London Street necessitating one going to Hospital. Where did they come from?, Turkmenistan – would one believe it, do we all know where that place is. Why would they wish and why would they be allowed to come here. We have absolutely nothing in common with that country or it’s people.
150 different languages are now commonly spoken in London, 3 in every 5 in London is now a foreigner. Yes, our historic capital city, oozing with the very “being” of Britishness now openly displays signs and advertisements written in languages that we don’t understand for the benefit of people that we don’t understand.
Were we consulted about this, was it in the Labour manifesto, what EU directive tells us we must accept young men from some remote part of the ex Soviet Union into our midst.
They have more than sold us out, no cash changed hands, they gave us away, free gratis and for nothing and these are the people for whom jobs must be found, housing provided, medical and education facilities made available, living space given and then this Labourite Government who lie through the teeth when this subject is mentioned, wonder why most sensible people hold them in such contempt.
Perhaps when we finally end up as jam packed as Hong Kong, some of these people who see nothing wrong in mass, uncontrolled immigration to this country will be satisfied.

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Andrew, sorry, complete and utter balderdash and you plainly don’t get out of Salop much, neither can you read the papers or watch TV. In fact, you seem completely oblivious to what is happening around you. Let’s examine your “facts” one by one.
(a) they pay taxes. Well the ones I see sleeping rough and waiting in crowds on street corners for shady “gangmasters” don’t.
(b) Yes, they pay landlords, swapping crummy beds in slums to cater for shift changes in 5 and more to a room slums. In many cases even the landlords are foreigners.
(c) The ones I see don’t use British airlines – they don’t use airlines period, they spend their time trying to find reasons not to go anywhere else but stay here. And many “legal” EU workers use buses from Victoria Coach Station, I see them most weeks when I go down there. The ones coming here of course don’t use a plane or a bus they use the backs of container lorries into Dover and similar.
(d) Just in case you haven’t realised, British workers are entitled to claim benefits it is part of our national social system, illegals can’t claim anything, legally, but they drain the system illegally. EU workers (legal) are entitled to benefits but glory be, they can claim gods knows what here, enough to send to wives and children who have never set foot here and, if we go there, the unemployment in some EU countries is all of £5 a week – if we had the cheek to claim it and they had to will to pay it.
You have the gall to compare a Brit claiming benefits to a foreigner doing the same.
So you are advocating British workers go and take jobs in Europe are you, what a sorry, shameful suggestion and it just sums up the whole basis of your silly comments. I could make the same sort of silly, facetious suggestion that if you like it so much in Europe, why don’t you etc etc etc. It is just as daft, you wouldn’t like it neither would our workers.
Perhaps you would like to stand in front of the BMW workers – all 850 of them put out of a job today and tell them to go and work in Bulgaria, Romania, Spain, Poland, or any of the other 23 countries.
Elsewhere, someone says that it is the left wing, liberal, woolly minded europhiles who have got our country into this state. If that cap fits, can I make a polite suggestion.

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Yes, Sir Digby Jones, ex boss of the Confederation of British Industry and an ex Labour Lap dog though he would deny it. If our country has to depend on the likes of him, no wonder why we are were we are.
Yes, I know only to well the difference between an illegal and a legal and both would be banned if I had my way.
Legal Foreign Workers on the Olympic site in London earning £50 a day – that’s not exploitation and underpricing British workers – then tell me what is. They are clearly not being paid the same as our workers and given a choice, because of that, employers will go for cheap foreign labour.
There are not “thousands upon thousands of British workers in the parts of the EC that most foreign workers come from to this country, I doubt that there are that many in Spain, France etc, most are retired enjoying the good life. How many Brits in the Baltic or East European countries. 20,000 applications were made in one London Borough alone in one month by foreign workers for National Insurance numbers and all the benefits that, that entails.
No, employers don’t want foreign workers removed because it removes a ready source of exploitation and profits from them. If you are an employer – I wonder how many you employ.
As for the agency workers, I am sure, given the choice, these would have preferred permanent status and took agency work because the firm would not employ them otherwise. I have little time for militant unions of which Unite is one but yesterday, Tony Woodley said it all, “BMW did it because they can get away with it in this country – if they were in germany they couldn’t have done it”. What’s the betting, when they start hiring staff again, it won’t be British agency workers, it will be foreign ones.
Nobody, but nobody can convince me that the swamping of foreigners into our little country is either beneficial or in the eventual best interests of them or ourselves.
You speak as an employer Andrew and everything that that entails as well.

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It is rather scary that Andrew Finch says he’s an employer, yet can’t even master basic English grammar and spelling. Scary….

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Andrew, Foreign workers “over here” outnumber our own workers “over there” by 4 – 1. Non EU workers over here (ie those with no automatic right to be here but which Labour has allowed to come) outnumber EU workers by a massive ratio, indeed of over 3 1/2 million foreign workers, over 2 million came from outside the EU.
The percentage of foreign workers taking British jobs increased from 7.5% in 1997 when Labour came to office to 13% today. Want me to go on, these are not assumptions, these are facts which I did not wish to labour but merely to point out the principles.
With a niece who is at a very high level in the NHS (and I mean high at Director level) and a daughter at Nursing/Midwifery Sister level there is nothing you can tell me about foreigners in the NHS, it is the favourite cry of the apologists for all the foreign people being allowed in this country. If foreigners were not allowed in, there would be no need for our whole social infrastructure to be under strain and therefore no need for foreigners in our NHS.
You are an apologist for the EU, the unrestricted entry of EU workers into this country and I abhor all that, on this issue, you stand for. You can make every excuse, you can attempt to give every justification and with me and many like me, it holds not the slightest credibility.
As for saying that these people will get us out of the mess that we are in, well, that shows such great economic and financial reasoning that if the same was applied in your business it would see you bankrupt within a very short time.
In the current climate, I would be ashamed and very reluctant to shout about any support for the EU.
If your following comment is a sarcastic point directed at me, can I say that (a) I am a pensioner and in that regard I have (without any doubt at all) paid a larger pension and National Insurance contribution than you are likely to pay in the whole of your working life and (b) my Income Tax contributions (on salary) are probably as much, if not much higher than yours were.

“A little englander is of no benefit to the uk as i do not believe there are many of them and many are now probably retired non tax paying individualls who are now only takeing from the state.”

You will forgive me therefore when I say I bow to nobody when it comes to paying their way in this country and I have every right to be extremely anti EU and foreign worker.

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Gosh Little Englander I have not heard that one for a few years!

I think it has just been announced that there are four times the number of EU workers in Britain than British Workers in the EU, I have not seen the report, only quoting a headline. But even if there were I million British workers in the EU (and there is not) that would still be the tail wagging the dog, as the rest of us who have not left the country are competing with four times that amount of foreigners for work. This is especially noticeable at the lower end of the pay and skills level. Where it is recognised that the imported labour force has had the effect of forcing lower wages ie more on minimum wages.

Also a great many of these workers have no intention of staying here, they are here for the work to improve their conditions at home, this means that far from spending in the community they will be saving as much as possible to send home.

Nothing here is intended to suggest that EU workers are not prepared to work.

Given the minimum wages in Britain is the third highest of all the member states (2007) this would mean British workers can only work in Ireland or Luxemburg to improve there earning potential. Considering purchasing power Britain is the second of all EU states. So the argument that we should get on our bikes and go to work in the EU is an argument for a race to the bottom. And it denies the reality that the low paid or unemployed are not likely to be the ones to up sticks and move to a foreign country to seek work. Even if they did they would not be better off and they would also find it difficult to return to this country to seek work, because EU rules after a year you will receive benefits from the state in which you last worked, hence although a Polish worker would be better off in Poland looking for work whilst receiving British job seekers allowance the same cannot be said of the reverse case.

But there are other considerations, we elect our government to look after the British state, the British people and British business, we also pay them quite a reasonable wage for doing so, they are supposed to be the servants of the people of Britain. Quite a few British and Britain’s there on purpose because it is the British nation state. And we the people should be asked if we want to exchange our present nation state.

Our governments of both parties have reneged on their duty to protect the state and its people, they cannot claim to now to protect the state because they have agreed to a policy of open borders, we can no longer control our own borders from anyone who is already inside the EU. This means that we cannot set our own immigration levels for the benefit of the state. Also the present situation actually discriminates against anyone who is not from an EU state, who might want to come and settle in this country.

We must however recognise a basic problem, the people of this country have never given their consent to being immersed in the EU to this extent. We voted to remain a member of the Common Market

One of the points made by Wilson’s government was;
No important new policy can be decided in Brussels or anywhere else without the consent of a British Minister answerable to a British Government and British Parliament.

These decisions can be taken only if all the members of the Council agree. The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests.

None of this is now true because the EU has developed drastically since 1974 and now the British government finds that it can be outvoted on practically all policy issues, even then when it negotiates an opt out the ECJ can rule against, or the EU parliament can vote to remove the opt out.

It really is well past the time when the British people should have been consulted about ever closer union.

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Andrew, somewhere in the deep recesses of my memory, I recall 82% of the polled British public wanted a referendum on the EU which this Labour gang promised and then lied to us and broke the promise.
You, with your blatantly “europhile” pandering and your generalised, unspecific insults to those Brits on benefits are not a member of some noble band, upholding all the proud traditions, history and culture of our little island, if the truth is known, you are a member of a despised likely, minority who puts foreign people in our country on a par with your own countrymen. You continually harp on about being “an employer” and are proud of the fact you employ foreigners and seem to set more store on these than Brits. If I was the owner of a small business employing one or two, perhaps three or four foreigners, or whatever it is, I would not be proud of the fact and when you castigate British workers can I suggest that like a general who blames his troops for failures or a bad workman blaming his tools, that is a direct reflection on the person who is responsible for recruiting and managing them.
We, meaning those that have no time for the EU, should take some pride in the snide comment, “little Englander”, it is no longer the term of derision that you thought it was. Who was it who once said, “England, that little nation of shopkeepers”. Some little nation, some shopkeepers, you know a bit about Anglo/French history of course and what the shopkeepers did, both to and for France.
The objects of derision in these troubled times should be the diminishing number of Europhiles in our midst.

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I agree with Andrew.

I don’t see much wrong with the free movement of peoples and today with the borders within Europe being pulled down so that young people can move around, learn the cultures, languages etc., of other nations – then it can only be for the general good of mankind.

Both my (Canadian) children are working in Europe at the moment and I am sure they will learn a great deal from their experience… they may even choose to live in France or Spain, what a wonderful privilege considering Franco was on the ‘throne’ when I was a kid and even travel to Spain was limited.

Also when I worked in various European countries there was always the problem of work visas and permits. And as for the east Europeans .. what a dreadful time they had including an old flat-mate who had escaped the tyranny of Budapest in ’56.

Europe has come a long, long way since that time and England should have been at the helm .. and easily could’ve been with her international reputation, prosperity, language and influence.

Indeed my kids both comment on what a nation of complainers the British are, they blame everybody but themselves for their, somewhat, petty problems.

Furthermore, countries such as France, Switzerland, Germany and Austria have, in the past, had a much greater ratio of foreign born workers within their borders than the UK. This is what happens when a country is successful … it goes with the territory.

The Americans, with their usual insularity, refuse to give work permits to Mexican and other much needed workers – they work under-the-table and at risk of being deported. There is no free movement of people between Canada and the US which stifles industry and does nothing to foster good relations between our two countries.

And as far as Turkmenistan is concerned we should know where the place is … or is your education system as bad as ours? The Afghan war concerns this area (Canada and Great Britain have lost hundreds of young men in this war) which has arguably more oil reserves than anywhere outside of the Gulf regions.

Maybe we should be cultivating the friendship of young Turkmen … after all they might turn out to be friends not foes in the crisis that is unfolding in the former Soviet ‘Stans’ dictororships.

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you have evaded the question figures fit who ever is makeing them up. Are you suggesting the enforced return of brits from abroad becouse in your world the uk will then become utopia??.
Lets face it i think most will agree with your way of thinking the uk would be in a (land that time forgott) its people would lack any form of ambition world knowledge etc etc etc i honstly think 99.9% of the british public would not agree with you and the rest can be classed as non progressive whingers.

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you still have not answered the question. What about all the brits abroad?? there isnt a few thousand you know .
It seems to me you want all this in your country which will become utopia but brits if they so wish should go global if they wish and i bet you think the countries should be honoured to have them too,
LALA land

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how can in roll back terms and conditions?? the british worker is one of the best protected in the world. The low paid are paid the same , and it is british citizens who are openly employing eu plumbers builders etc becouse they are cheaper
(do we take away the right of a citizen to employ who they wish)
a polish builder was charging a friend of mine a labour charge of £590 compared to the brit who wanted £1k a week who is ripping who off ??? is a builder worth the larger amount?? i dont think so we have been held to ransom by brit builders/plumbers for years fair price for a fair days work i say .

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Andrew, I will come back in because you have a false idea of what the issue is all about, you say, “DO WE TAKE AWAY THE RIGHT OF THE CITIZEN TO EMPLOY WHO THEY WISH”.
My answer to that is “no and yes”, “no”, if the “citizen” is employing British labour and a big “yes” if that employer wishes to take on foreign (EU) labour when there is a ready “pool” of skilled and qualified UK workers also available to do it. Can you not understand that there are many people who are utterly opposed to the EU and everything it stands for and every word you comment merely reinforces those opinions and views in the minds of those who value this country and it’s workers and people.
The British economy is based on the wages of it’s own workers, it’s own goods and services and it’s own infrastructure and overall capital and costs. If £1000 is the going rate – then pay the going rate not a less amount to a foreign worker when Brits are able to do it. You speak like a true employer who will exploit every opportunity for a fast buck, you owe loyalty to nothing except your pocket and you distort figures and quote examples and principles to suit your purpose to put yourself on the self expressed high moral ground which, to onlookers has a dubious basis.
Right, we have the message, you have a small firm, you said you employ British workers but the impression comes clearly across that you despise Brit workers in favour of foreign ones. Fine, that’s great if you feel proud with that standpoint but let’s put paid to a few myths of the pro EU brigade.
Eurostat is an EU official Agency that deals with the central statistics of the EU. That Agency gives the following figures.
EU WORKERS in the United Kingdom, 1,172,000.
UK WORKERS in the European Union, 288,000, which includes:-
UK WORKERS in Germany, 65,300.
UK WORKERS in Ireland, 52,000.
UK WORKERS in Italy, 11,100.
UK WORKERS in Portugal, 4,500.

The above figures are “WORKERS”, they do not include UK citizens living in EU countries and who are eligible to draw UK state pensions.
The ploy of the Europhobes is to lump “workers” and “pensioners” together to illustrate the flawed assertion that as many UK workers live in the EU as what there are EU workers living here.

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you or who ever seem to have doctored the figures a little here. I and im sure many would not agree to these figures what about the seasonal brit workers etc etc and those who have left to start there own business etc etc as i have said it is not just eu countries the brits have invaded neither have you added the brits who have emigrated losk/stock and to eu countries and further.
As for what i am prepared to pay ? well im sure again many brits would agree with me we pay a fair price as i have said we have been held to ransom that is the brit worker problem he has ruined it for many by holding employers to ransom i am an employer and business not a charity.

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Andrew; I believe those figures are from the government statistics office, I also believe we are only referring to EU nationals and EU states, not all the people who have emigrated from Britain. The people who have moved to other EU states but are still drawing a state pension, I believe would still be entitled to those pensions wherever they live. The difference between them and an eastern European who has only been here a year and has no intention of staying because he only came for the work, is that they have paid into the pot all their lives.

I do understand where you are coming from with regard to wages, but there has always been a dichotomy between what the worker thinks he is worth and what the employer thinks he can pay. I am also an employer or rather was and I could never afford to pay what I would have liked to pay and was always grateful to find people who were willing to work for us at the rate we could afford. As I said I work in a traditionally low pay industry, I have struggled all my life on low pay but I always understood that it was the best my employer could do, my fault I suppose for choosing the wrong trade.

As far as tradesmen go, builders, electricians, plumbers etc. I think we have historically undervalued those trades by allowing the education system to become elitists, so we have ended up in a situation where too few people were prepared to enter those trades, that has resulted in a shortage of skilled tradesmen, which means they are in a position of power when it comes to negotiating a price for the job.

I tend to think this business of kicking out all the non “Brits” is not the point at issue here, we do need some immigration but our government can no longer decide on the level. I am a little concerned by the term “Brit” I hope that includes all those who have over the years made their home here and are British nationals.

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Andrew, I think you will find that it would be illegal for a contract to contain a British only workers clause.

Immigration is good to a point but too much immigration is not good, especially when we have duty of care for them, and especially when we do not control the influx. An insurance system works on the basis that less people will take out than put in, if the temporary worker takes out what he put in or even more then it is not good for our national system.

The social safety net we have introduced in Britain is nationally based and will be destroyed if it is open to all, but that is the intention the EU want to break up all national institutions because it works against building an EU Demos and without an EU Demos the EU lacks a popular mandate. Without a popular mandate the power will always remain within the member states and that is not the intention.

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bill you paid in to a system when you worked that went in to others who were on pensions etc now the people who are working are paying your pension etc it did not go in to a pot with bill’s name on it.
As an ex pat you prattle on about your country but choose to live in some one elses? . I do not i live in the great uk and proud of it and pay in to it. You say you fought for it so did a number of my relatives however they actually died for it .
you say i despise the Sovereignty of the uk absolute rubbish i live in it and i pay in to it .
Market forces will decide when we have had enough migrant workers they will go home if there is no work. I do think you confuse asylum seekers and illegals and as many bunch the whole lot together while snipeing from some one elses counntry

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bill, your anger is clear for all to read but never the less you are still sniping from some one else’s country. Where you have by all accounts imposed yourself but have retained your British subject status and I am sure you assume the country you have dumped yourself in are great full you honour them with your supreme attendance.
No I have not fought in any world wars hasn’t been any lately,or conflicts,campaigns as I am not in the armed forces and have never been called upon to do so .
It seems to me bill any ex pat is exactly that ex pat and as far as I am concerned you have no right what so ever to comment on the UK which is a great country .
Do you actually see yourself as an immigrant??.
And again I say any person from the eu working and paying in to the British system in my view is welcome . You have done what many say migrant workers do you have taken your money i.e. pension out of the country and and spend it in another where you are an immigrant sorry ex pat.
glass house and an over inflated opinion of ones own worth comes to mind bill

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