I think the header claiming 70% of motorists were speeding is misleading. Apparently 34% were travelling at speeds of 30 – 34mph. What percentage were doing 30mph? Most people do stick to the speed limit or very close to it (you have to make some allowance for variation in speedometer readings). Reasonable enforcement may be needed, signs that light up to indicate your speed work well. Unless we want the whole country covered with GATSO’s you will never prevent everyone from speeding. I see people overtaking on double white lines all the time. Maybe we should all be required to take a driving refresher test say every 5 yrs (at no cost of course!), perhaps that is the way to turn everyone into a considerate motorist??

Report abuse

The best way to stop the speeding through these villages would be to raise the speed limit to a reasonable 40mph. How many accidents have there been in Worthen and Marton villages due to “speeding”? I expect more people in these villages have been injured in their owm homes than on the road, but of course that is not the current fad of pressure groups.

Report abuse

Those councilors are all stick and no carrot. I suspect a system could be put in place that rewards drivers for following the speed limit, and that this would work much better than the current system or speeding ticket cameras, which only increase anxiety and road rage. Maybe something as simple as having a smiley face light up, or perhaps we can take a lesson from online games and set up a website that keeps track of how many times we were found driving in accordance with the speed limits.

Alternatively, we could just ignore the problem and keep doing the same thing, and we’d perhaps be just as safe. Despite these flagrant violations of the speed limits, the roads are still safe and there really isn’t anything to worry about.

Report abuse

itsallajoke: Well if had been me behind you, I would have videoed you and imagine you would have been prosectuted for Carless Driving and Driving without Due Care and Attention. Going rate would be £200 and 6 points if you have not been too naughty before.
To quote Sue Nicholson of the RAC “People who drive as slowly as that cause as much difficulty and danger on the road as people who speed.”
Your ludicrous driving is also a breach of the Highway Code – for obvious reasons.
Only this September a nurse escaped jail after causing the death of another driver though her slow driving. Judge Christopher Elwen told the defendant: “The unusual feature of your case is that the dangerous errors occurred from driving too slowly, not driving too fast.”

If you find having someone 5” behind you at 30mph to stressful – use the bus! You and your like are a menace on the roads.

Report abuse

Now …

Statisically, let see here..

(ignoring all the hype about “speeding” ..etc just for the moment)

Quote:

The results showed:

26% below 30mph,
34% between 30mph and 34mph,
30% at 35-39mph
10% at 40mph or more.

Now, I’m sure you all know (and the vilagers manning the speed cameras should know), that any observation of “events” for statisical purposes such as this usually follows a standard disribution, that is:

The majority of results will be in the centre of the curve, or about an “average”, and very few results, typically less than 2-3 % will lie at the “very” extremes, either very high or very low speed in this case.

Now, from the tests that were applied, it seems that the MAJORITY of drivers (26%+34% 60%!) were travelling at a “mean or average speed” of somwhere less than 34 MPH, (with 26% of that group in the statisical curve, less than 30MPH).

NOW … what this ACTUALLY means is that most people (60%) were “observing or taking note of” the speed limit , “within reasonable limits” (also allowing for errors in measurements, and speedo indication etc)

ONLY the remaining 40%, were in this test, it “could be said” were actually really “exceeding” the speed limit with “intent” or “inattention”.

So …. where does the headline 70% exceeding the speed limit come from?

What this suggests to me (as a driver with over 40+ years and 800.000 miles experience)
is that:

The “real situation” here is that most drivers were actually driving quite resonably!

Report abuse

In the village I live in, there have been several crashes involving serious injuries, but still there are no speed control measures.

As for slowing down if someone is tailgating you when you’re sticking to the speed limit – I don’t really blame Itsallajoke for that. I’d rather someone drove into the back of me at 20 mph than 40mph (actually I’d rather nobody drove into the back of me!) although it’s not something I would do. I have had to take evasive action before now to avoid being run off the road by someone speeding in the 30mph limit.

Report abuse

Less than a third of fatalaties were due to speed last year. Whilst that is tragic, all these anti-speed campaigners are diverting attention from the more difficult causes of road deaths that get ignored.

Report abuse

Commenting on the headline of this article:

70% exceeded the speed limit.
70% is a majority.
We live in a democracy where the Government and its representatives are chosen to do the bidding of the majority.
The majority clearly think the limit should be higher.

Surely the message screaming out here is that the authorities should raise the limit !

Report abuse

Itsallajoke: David made a very valid point about emergencys. A few yaers ago, after my father had surgery, the doctor advised me NOT to call an ambulance, but to rush my father in myself if he started a heart attack.

If I had come up behind you, and you dropped to 10mph, I would have rammed you and been within the law doing so, as you were illegally using a motor vehicle as an act of retrubution and my defence would have been the same as the emergency services, that is the risk was acceptable compared to the greater risk of loss of life.
No everyone has a dull and doddering life, so think next time, some people’s urgency may be for a good reason and they may be more capable of higher, yet safe, speeds than you!
Pull over if you can’t cope, better still use public transport and rid the roads of incompetent drivers.

Report abuse

Lucy W said: Nov 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm itsallajoke: Well if had been me behind you, I would have videoed you and imagine you would have been prosectuted for Carless Driving and Driving without Due Care and Attention. Going rate would be £200 and 6 points if you have not been too naughty before.

So Lucy W how would you explain to the judge how you managed to drive and video the car in front, who was driving WITHIN the law. Muppets like you should never drive a car and for the rest of us LAW ABIDING drivers, YOU GET THE BUS.

Report abuse

Chris, re#19, Whilst I dont wish to appear aggressive, but I do get frustrated with drivers who think they own the road and dont understand the lethal consequences of bad driving that they advocate as the best way to drive. They frustrate me as much as people who believe that their car is so technologically advanced that they can never cause an accident. You would be amazed at how many people dont realise that they are relying on ABS braking because they say never feel the pedal pulse! And its hilarious what some people believe their “electronic” 4wd will do and so drive faster believing they are safer.
Its a fact that the DoT will confirm, that when in an accident, you are more likely to be killed in a car WITH ABS than without – thats why I have mine disconnected.

Report abuse

What a wonderful idea the camera that you mention is , Lucy. I would be buying one tomorrow if I thought I caould take it to the police station on a weekly basis to download it and get some of the moronic drivers that I see on a hourly basis taken off the road. At least “itsallajoke” looks in his mirror, it seems that a large majority don’t these days or indicate and it’s no wonder that 93% of accidents AREN’T caused by speeding but BAD drivers.

Report abuse

David: Perhaps I need to explain that statistic more clearly, “when in an accident, you are more likely to be killed in a car WITH ABS than without”. So to spell it out for people who haven’t read what I said properly, its like this; take 100 Non-ABS cars in accidents and 100 ABS cars in accidents, and the fatality rate of the occupants will be greater in car with ABS. A fact available from the DoT and acknowledged by manufacturers who are both in discussions about this alarming fact.
The consensus seems to be that these driver aids are lurring drivers into a false sense of security and so driving faster, braking later and generally taking more risks due to the false beliefs of just what these devices can do.

If fact you have just stated the classic mis-conception that ABS shortens braking distances. it may do in some circumstances, it may not in others. What it does do is maintain steerability, but only within the laws of physics! A side-ways skid is more likely in a ABS car as non-ABS – just remember that!
The fact is that if I had ABS activated on my car, I would be unaware of the assistance it was giving me, as ABS is often activated without the familiar brake pedal pulse to prevent a lock up. Therefore my car will lock up sooner now, but that means I am have a closer awareness of the cars natural limits, hence I leave greater stopping distances and drive slower accordingly.

So whilst you may feel I am an idiot in my decision, I have a least made it with a full understanding of how these systems work and the laws of physics whilst other believe that their technology laden cars will defy the laws of physics.

I dont think I’m the idiot here. But dont take my word, contact the DoT under FoI and the manufacturer of your ABS system, but dont expect a straight answer or one at all from the manufacturer.

What is needed is more education, but sadly thats not what people seem to want.

Report abuse

[devilsadvocate]Yes, David. But if you require the assistance of ABS, then does that not assume that your observation is lacking?[/devilsadvocate]

I’d be happy on crossplies as well; more chances of oversteery moments on damp roundabouts :-)

Report abuse

Brian(2): Its so reassuring that someone appreciated that ABS can in fact increase braking distances – sadly so most drivers of ABS cars are unaware of this, and this needs addressing by the industry.
You also refer to the Muppet Effect, which I think is know in scientific cirles as the the Cotton wool Effect. There has already been one UK death attributed to a drivers reliance on ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and inabilty to control the car without it.
I used to drive an ESP car and the the ESP was lost due to a fault, and the difference is extreme. I am lucky as the onlt ESP car I have can disengage ESP. Whilst ESP allows me to go faster and safer, I would rather go slower and not be killed if it fails.
The problem with these devices is the driver is not aware that they are “saving” the driver. I would like to see an activation light so a driver knows when he is exceeding his own abilities and relying on electronic intervention. However, the industry feels that drivers would not understand and be totally confused just as when ABS could be disengaged by a dash button. And Audi’s original quattro system was abandoned as people had no idea what diff-locks were and engaged them at every possibility.

Report abuse

Lucy W

Very busy so havent time to read most of your meanderings which look the same as you have spouted before anyway. But I have read the first part, and I certainly did NOT “state a classic misconception that ABS shortens braking distances”, indeed I would go as far as to offer this – £50,000 to anyone who can find such a sentence in my post above!

I wont be rushing to withdraw the funds, because Lucy W is happily inventing false statements so she can argue against what hasnt been said. Very clever – NOT !

What ABS can do is decrease your stopping distance on wet or slippery roads by preventing the wheels locking up under heavy braking. The improvement can be up to 25%, which I’m sure everyone apart from Lucy W and Brian(2) will appreciate is considerable.

It does this by applying and releasing the brakes on individual wheels very rapidly (30 to 40 times per second). Most of us are unable to do that and so are happy to have ABS enabled. I could turn it off in dry conditions, as this could improve my stopping distance slightly, however as yet I have never needed to stop so quickly in dry conditions, most sensible drivers never will.

I would turn the system off in snow, but that is all. To have it turned off all the time is just plain stupid. Perhaps Lucy W also always drives on racing slicks which would also improve her stopping distance in the dry.

Perhaps it never rains in cloud Lucyland !

Report abuse

David: you said “I could turn it [ABS] off in dry conditions”
I thought you had a new car? So how can you turn it off in dry conditions?

Report abuse

Even in the early days of ABS the car manufacturers only ever advertised it as a way of being able to steer with some sort of control around an obstacle in front of you whilst braking sharply, NOT as a fantastic way of stopping in an unbelievabley short distance.

Report abuse

Brian(2): Very true. If you read manufacturers information about their ABS, such as Bosch, you will not find any claims of shorter braking distances. Its all about maintaining steering.

Report abuse

David: If you pull the ABS connector plug you will loose all your dash booard controls including rev and speed meter.
My car went to a garage in UK where, with the wonders of technology, a man in Germany re-programmed my car.
I’m not argueing with the experts, you are. Rober Bosch and the Society of Automative Engineers use the 10% figure and no car manufacturer makes any other claim that I have seen. Perhaps you could post a link of a MANUFACTURER who makes and claim above 10% in the wet? But ABS stil increases in the dry!!

I can assure you that Brian(2) and myself are not the same person although we do have a similar understanding of the facts.

You should test you cars braking and handling in a safe speed in dry and wet, on straights and corners, to fully appreciate matters. It is evident that you rear end shunt scenario was based on your false understamding that ABS is always better than non-ABS.

Well I see David has gone off in a huff, just like he did on the 4wd thread when he boasted what his car, or his company’s car to be precise, could do, yet had no idea what system it was and if it was a Electronic Clutch LSD, (which is most likely on a Nissan) didn’t realise that they dont function at speed, in snow or mud, or cornering.

By all means David, drive what you want, but dont put other peoples lives at risk believing that you cars technology is significantly superior. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

Report abuse

What I find really annoying about people like you David, is not the fact that you know absolutely nothing about car mechanics because as you say, “you don’t NEED to know how a car works to drive one, (although knowledge of how anything works make you a better operator)and to some people “ignorance is bliss”.

But what really annoys me is how you, in the debate on four wheel drives and this one, have lambasted Lucy when it is obviuos that she knows far more than me or you (and I have worked on cars for the last 35 years.) What is it about you, David? Can you not accept that a woman knows far more than you?

Report abuse

There’s one born every minute, stunned. Next you will be saying that all the reduced speed limits and speed cameras are there to save lives….whatever next?

Report abuse

Stunned: I dont know more than manufacturers, I know as much as them because I read their technical papers not read by the general public or motoring press.

ABS is on all cars due to an EU Directive.

If you dont believe what I say about increased stopping distances, write to the manufacturer and see if you get a straight answer or one at all.

The problem with driver AIDs is people RELY on them. People believe they are safer so go faster to the same level of acceptable risk. This is probably a significant factor in why when in an accident, you are more likely to be killed in a car with ABS than without – but dont take my word, get a FoI from DoT to confirm this startling fact. More startling when you consider an ABS car is more likely to have better occupancy protection with air-bags etc.

Report abuse

Good point made by Brian(2) re abscence of ABS in Motor Sport – I think that says it all.

Report abuse

Lucy W

In #18 you stated “If I had come up behind you, and you dropped to 10mph, I would have rammed you and been within the law doing so”. Please tell us where in English case law this statement comes from. It certainly isnt in any of my law books, or are you above the laws that apply to the rest of us?

Report abuse

Stunned: ABS can not detect the wheel loosing traction! It merely detects rapid deceleration. It does a lot more before the familiar brake pedal pulse. The brake pressure oscilation is the very last thing it does. Quite obviously you have not idea what ABS does and I wont bore you explaining as my experience of this thread is people prefer ignorance. But please ask if you have any questions.
By the way maximum traction is at the point where there is some slipage – beyond ABS, hence longer braking distances are possible.

Frank: Try the defence of necessity – ever wondered how the police and emergency services are allowed to break motoring law? Just what Law book are you reading? A DIY Divorce book?

Johny: The only thing that is tested is the ABS warning lamp at MOT. This is done by switching the ignition on and watching the warning lamp go out. The brake test can not detect ABS. If the tester should by some means detect that ABS is not functioning,ie a road test, then it is only an advisory and not a fail as Non-functioning ABS does not make a car unroadworthy as the brakes work through the unit just the same with all the valves open, just as under “normal” braking. Hence, ABS needs to be disconnected “professionally” to allow the warning lamp to function for the MOT test. Hope that answers your question – any more?

I’m not claiming to be a super human driver, just more intoutch with my cars natural abilities and I drive accordingly, rather than be taken closer to the limits, oblivious to the risk which is masked by driver aids.

Do you have any explaination why when in an accident, more people are killed in ABS cars than Non-ABS? Factor in the fact that ABS cars will more likely have other driver safety feature, TC, ESP, EBD, Air bags, side impact protection and I think this statistic should make people stop and think.

Report abuse

“Stunned/ David/johnie” seems to think that somewhere along the line I have said that ABS causes cars to accelerate. If you read comment 29 again you will see that I said “the brakes release for a second and the car increases speed. ” In simple terms deceleration ceases for a second and inertia causes the car to speed up. …nothing to do with the accelerator. You can try this simple test yourself by travelling at 70MPH on a clear dual carriageway or motorway, braking sharply for a second then releasing the brakes.

The actual place that I found it to happen constantly is at the run up to Emestery Island in Shrewsbury when approaching from the Whitchurch side. There is a strip about 100 yards before the island, metal I think, some sort of channel and when I used to live in Shrewsbury I often used to hit this when braking for the island and on two different ABS assisted cars the brakes would release for a split second which would be frighteningly dangerous if you weren’t expecting it and if there had have been a line of stationary traffic in front of you .

The statement, “there is no substitute for experience and car control”, I would have thought was obvious to any experienced driver (especially one who is supposed to be a supporter of F1 and advocating driver skill over gadgetry) but unfortunately we are moving into a cotton wool wrapped world where everyone is cosseted beyond the realms of learning from your mistakes. I learnt to drive in an age where even brake servos and disc brakes were not standard and I would certainly prefer my children to learn and start their driving life in cars that weren’t electronic gadget assisted to enable them to “feel the road” and learn safe car control.

Report abuse

Lucy W
I have many law books.
In English law, the defence of necessity recognises that there may be situations of such an overwhelming urgency, that a person must be allowed to respond by breaking the law. There have been very few cases in which the defence has succeeded. Certainly there has never been an instance where someone has deliberately endangered other peoples’ lives in the manner you describe, and been able to avoid prosecution. The emergency services do not deliberately ram law abiding motorists out of their way. Your interpretation of this area of the law is woefully misguided.

Report abuse

Lucy W – Just because I didnt list everything that a modern ABS system does, does not mean I dont know. I am aware that the system recognises when the wheel is losing traction by the ECU measuring the differing speed. I also know that it is widely acknowledged maximum traction occurs at the point where a wheel has 11% slippage.
Not only am I fully aware of these things, I can also spell ‘losing traction’ and slippage’ correctly! If you want to pretend to be some sort of authority on a subject, you really should learn to spell at least the relevant words.

Report abuse

Frank: The scenario I was refering was not a law-abiding motorist. It was a motorist useing a motorized vehicle for an act of retribution – criminal offence.
We probably dont hear of cases as they never go to court in the first place. But in the scenario where a motorist was deliberately holding me up while my father was having a heart attack, I would not refer to the law books, I would do it and imagine that I would suceed in a defence of Necessity and Duress of Circumstances and the case of Martin [1988] is the obvious illustration of how this defence was a complete defence in a motoring offence where the driver’s passenger was at risk of loosing her life.
Just what area of Law have you studied or have you done got a GCSE Law revision book?

Report abuse

Unlike our “cotton wool safety experts” I base my observations on real life experience and although our “experts” seem to be quite competant on “nit picking” over the definitions of inertia and acceleration they cannot answer the reason for the sudden lack of braking that I have experienced many times when hitting strips or potholes in the road. Why is this I ask?

Those same “experts” might like to do some googling and read a report by Frank Williams in August 2006 who found that ABS was not as safe as the NHTSA in America would like us to believe and in 1996 The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (in America) published a news release titled “Antilock brakes don’t reduce fatal crashes” and confirms what Lucy was saying that you are more likely to be killed in an accident with an ABS car than without.

There is lots of information out there if our “experts” would like to find it but personally I go by my own experiences and know what I have found and which type of vehicle I prefer.

Maybe our experts can do some background reading and then get back with some sensible answers?

As for the MOT test, I have taken several vehicles for an MOT and the situation is that the car is put on rollers and the force needed for the brakes to stop the rollers is measured and so long as it is within a bandwidth of acceptable force the car passes, can our experts state at what point in this simple test does the ABS get checked?

Report abuse

Lucy W – Are you also now claiming that ABS somehow can cause a vehicle to accelerate? – Brian(2) has very clearly stated he believes this is true, although he does not appear to understand ‘accelerate’ and ‘increase speed’ are one and the same thing.

I most definitely DO NOT agree that this is possible.

Brian(2) – You make a stupid statement that inertia causes acceleration then complain of ‘nit picking’ when someone corrects you. You dont have to be an expert to know about inertia. It is a fundamental principle used to describe the motion of matter. Put very very simply it says that something will NOT accelerate unless a force is applied to it. The force cannot be inertia. Neither inertia or ABS can cause acceleration. If your car is accelerating when you put your foot on the brakes take it to a garage !

You both seem to have got into a hole here. A wise person would stop digging. I therefore look forward to responses from both of you :)

Report abuse

Stunned, you are very clever at picking up on peoples misuse of the english language, maybe I meant “momentum” instead of inertia but you knew what I meant and are using it as a VERY poor excuse not to answer the fundemental questions about the failings of ABS. Why does ABS release the brakes when a pothole is struck, do YOU know the answer to that one? Have you not read the links that I supplied you regarding accidents linked to ABS? Any Fool could find them by puuting in the name supplied and ABS.Have you NO answers to that…I THOUGHT NOT…bury your head in the sand if you like but don’t praise up ABS when there is loads of evidence out there which points to it being not as safe as MISGUIDED people like you would like to believe.

I just hope, for your sake and anyone around you, that you don’t find out the hard way, when your lack of driving skills make you feel safe with the “cotton wool” benefits of ABS, that might well let you down seriously one day.

Report abuse

Stunned: On the ABS “accelerating” issue I would say that Brian is 100% accurate in his observation and I have observed it myself.
When ABS releases brake force from one wheel it does not apply additional brake force to any other wheel so the Rate of Deceleration is REDUCED. However the ear and brain is not sufficiently evolved to interpret this properly and it is rather like an optical illusion in that brain is confused and person feels the sensation of ACCELERATION. Whilst clearly this is not actual acceleration, Brains brain, my brain and everyone’s brain will experience the sensation of acceleration if their ears and brains are sensitive enough to react to this. I understand that this ability is lost as you get older, just as you can’t hear high frequencies as you age.

The point I would like to make is that to my mind it is very important, that Brian has shared with us his personal observations to add to the discussion rather than copy and paste from the web with no personal input, experience or expertise.

Finally, I imagine people will now try and jump on Brian for this, but the fact is because his ear/brain sense this illusion, he in fact has better driving skill (all other things being equal) than someone who does not have such a good sense of balance. I wouldn’t be surprised if Brian has had success in something like gymnastics or even motorsport itself. I would rather be in a car with Brian, especially without ABS.

Report abuse

Lucy, it seems obvious to me that our so called “experts” have no practical knowledge at all and are only capable of ridicule and quoting or copy/pasting from google or Yahoo questions.

Unfortunately, clowns like this believe themselves to be right no matter what, no doubt ancestors of theirs believed the world was round once and probably ridiculed early explorers who tried to prove them wrong.

Report abuse

Lucy says “A little knowledge is dangerous!”

I say “A little knowledge in the wrong hands makes for a good laugh”…keep it up guys!

Report abuse

Happened upon this thread while looking for something else in the motoring section. I have been an MOT tester for 30 years, seen an awful lot of changes in that time, but if its any help I can tell people on here the ABS system should be fully operational in order to pass. The tester checks by watching the bulb, as the bulb signifies if the system is working. If the bulb has blown that is also a fail. Hope that helps.
Peter P

Report abuse

Lucy W
If you would rather travel with a driver who does not have the intelligence to understand that a car is merely decelerating less, and not accelerating, then you carry on. If you want to believe that such a driver is ‘better’ than a driver who can comprehend what is actually happening, then you believe that.

I am not sure what ‘DOT fatality statistics’ you are refering to, so it is difficult to comment on them. A search of the DfT website for ABS only brings up one report. It states – ‘The Department for Transport has carried out research into ESC which indicates that ESC equipped vehicles are involved in 25% fewer fatal road accidents.’ Are the DfT also wrong in their beliefs?

Report abuse

Lucy W – A law case always has two parties. The case to which you are refering is R v Martin (1989) which went to appeal. In this case, the defendant was found guilty of driving while disqualified, but successfully appealed on a point of law, that he had driven because his wife had threatened to kill herself if someone didnt. The appeal was won only in that it found the original Judge at fault for not allowing this defence. However, if he had, it is extremely unlikely the defendant would have won the case, as other persons were present that could have driven the vehicle legally !

The law is very clear that a defence of necessity is available only if, from an objective standpoint, the accused can be said to be acting reasonably and proportionately in order to avoid a threat of death or serious injury.

You would have to convince a Jury that it was reasonable to ram a slower moving vehicle, so endangering a number of lives, in order to avoid the risk of death of your sick passenger.

I dont think any Jury would agree with you that endangering a number of lives is a reasonable course of action in order to possibly save one life. If you failed to convince them you would be convicted of course.

Even if your proposed actions were likely to be successfully defended, you originally stated that you would have rammed someone and been within the law doing so. There is a big difference between doing something that is legal (within the law) as you originally claimed, and doing something that is illegal but for which you might be able to mount a successful defence.

Report abuse

Stunned: Actually I was talking to a colleague last night and funnily enough this inertial thing cropped up.
My colleague confirms that Brian is techically correct as cars have a significant of rotational inertia and upon the release of the brakes this converts to kinetic energy and causes acceleration. Also braking causes wind-up in the drive train which when released causes acceleration.
Sorry I cant be more specific, but I wasn’t taking notes and have a hangover this morning.
Nevertheless, thanx to Brian, I have actually learnt something, probably because my scientific train helps me to keep an open mind.
Thank you Brian, you obviously paid more attention in school than the rest of us, in fact I wonder if some bloggers here ever went to school.

Report abuse

Johnie Little,

You still haven’t answered my question about putting 17 year olds in Ferraris. You say that “car control and experience” is no match for electronic gadgetry so ARE YOU SAYING that 17 year olds would be safe in Supercars? Are you also saying that a 17 year old who has just passed his test and have no experience, be able to drive a pre 1992 F1 car with gadgets round a race track FASTER and SAFER than Schumacher in a present gadget reduced F1 car? It seems to me that you are.

Report abuse

Brian(2)
Thank you for being man enough to admit that you were wrong, and that what you could feel was your car ceasing to decelerate as rapidly, and not actually accelerating due to the ABS system. The reason it happens is because the wheel that has hit the pot hole loses traction for an instance. The brake on that wheel is therefore released to prevent it locking up. Of course the other wheels are still in contact with the road surface and retarding the car, but three wheels will cause significantly less deceleration which is what you are feeling. Lucy W appears to believe now that the car will accelerate. If all 4 wheels had lost all traction, and the car was extremely aerodynamic, then possibly this could be the case, although even then the kinetic energy and wind up combined would be so negligible I really dont believe you would be able to feel it especially as the whole car would, in effect, be airborne at the time.

To answer your other points:

1. Please check the official Department for Transport website by searching for ABS on it and reading their report. I do not profess to be ‘more expert’ than the DfT. They say it is safer.

2. It is not safe if your car ceases to decelerate when you want it to. If your tyres have no grip though, it will happen, whether you have ABS or not.

3. Stopping distances are ‘generally’ accepted to increase in snow and on gravel with ABS. ABS is most effective at reducing braking distances in wet and on variable surfaces, such as you would usually find on our roads. ABS is about more than just distance though, it helps drivers to steer when braking.

I believe these are all sensible answers. I am sorry if you feel it is ‘nit picking’ when someone corrects an obvious error that another poster has made. You said ABS caused acceleration. You said inertia caused acceleration. You said that momentum caused acceleration. As someone who studied A level physics, I felt able to correct obvious errors.

You posted incorrect statements. I corrected them. You now admit you were wrong. If you think that means you are intelligent and I am an idiot then fine, you carry on thinking it. People who read the above posts can form their own opinions on the matter.

Report abuse

Lucy W – In #74 Peter said “the ABS system should be fully operational in order to pass.”

You reply “some muppets believe that if ABS unit itself doesnt funtion its a fail”

Do you think ‘fully operational’ is another way of saying ‘doesnt function’?

It seemed quite clear to me that he was saying the whole system needs to be working, in which case he is not agreeing with you at all.

If you have managed to disable your ABS in such a way that the warning light still operates as it should, then it is entirely possible you could pass an MOT if the tester does not pick up on it. HOWEVER that does not mean your car is roadworthy, according to the MOT guidelines which are perfectly clear in stating that, if fitted, the ABS system must be functioning correctly. By ‘fixing’ the bulb so that it lights as it should, what you are in fact doing is attempting to deceive the MOT tester. Should you be involved in an accident and your insurance company finds out, do you really think they will pay out? If we’re looking for a ‘muppet’, surely someone who spends their days posting on newspaper forums about how they have disabled a safety feature on their car, then ‘fixed’ it so the MOT tester will not detect it, is going to be in prime position to take the award?

Report abuse

Johnie: You really dont read these posts do you? I previously stated that an insurer should be advised and my insurer did not alter the premium.

I’m glad that you finanlly accept that this only assessed by the warning lamp – pity you are not as big as Brian at accepting errors and so progressing. The whole system should be working and it is only failed if the lamp indicates this as you will know from that MOT Testers Manual that even if an ABS compnent is missing, it is only an advisory and not a fail!

Just why is my car not roadworthy? It has fully functional brakes – no different to a non-abs car.

It may be of interest to you that when older cars ABS fail, the cost of a new unit (about £1000) renders the car scrap. However people are fitting warning lamp bulbs to the ignition live with a suitable “sequence” attached (I belive that two resistors do the trick) for £2 and so convert a valueless car to in excess of £1000. I would imagine that such circuitry can be found on the web from a creative entrepreneur. (Sorry I have better things to do that google all day).

PS Even if I didn’t advise my insurance, how would they know? Surley if it was inspected and found that the warning lamp worked but solenoid valves in didn’t, they would conclude that I was oblivious to an undetectable fault?

Report abuse

On this thread, some are Women such as Lucy, some people are manly enough to admit when they state something wrongly and then there are idiots who are so stubborn and arrogant that they couldn’t admit to being wrong even if their lives depended on it…and one day that might just happen.

Stubborn/stunned, you really are gullible to the Nth degree if you believe that just because you can’t find anything on a public access, Dept for Transport, site that goes against ABS, then it must be a perfect system.

You have obviously read the American report, which, as expected does say that the American Govt does not disclose problems with ABS, just as ours doesn’t and a sensible person would expect that, BUT can you TOTALLY IGNORE the reports from the American Insurance Industry and the fact that studies in Germany and Oslo also confirm a higher rate of fatalities?

There are also reports from round the globe available which state that more people die from running off the road with ABS than without it and a UK report states that more men over 55 are killed with ABS than without. You may be ignorant but you bury your head in the sand at YOUR peril….not mine.

Report abuse

Lucy W, I am sorry you seem to misunderstand what I said, although I believed it was perfectly clear. The MOT is very clear that, where fitted, the ABS system must be fully operational. If you disconnect it, then it is not operational, and should fail the test. Where a component is missing then the MOT tester is required to advise the customer. HOWEVER the MOT tester must also still fail the vehicle if the ABS is not working. If a part is missing which does not affect the correct functioning of the ABS, then the vehicle may pass. To disable the ABS on a vehicle and then rewire the bulb to show it is still functioning correctly in order to trick the MOT tester is both dangerous and highly stupid. If you or someone else were to drive your car and be involved in an accident, where the disconnected ABS could be cited as a contributory factor, you would be liable to criminal prosecution. There has already been a legal case where this has happened, where a lorry driver disconnected his tacho, and inadvertently the ABS with it, and was then involved in an accident. I believe he went to jail !

Report abuse

Lucy W
I certainly did not “accept that this only assessed by the warning lamp”, I said it is possible you could pass if an MOT tester did not pick up on it.

You ask “Just why is my car not roadworthy? It has fully functional brakes – no different to a non-abs car.” Why dont you take it up with the DfT. They make the rules, not me. I merely told you what the rules are, and the rules are – if ABS is fitted, it must be functioning.

You ask how your insurance company would know – If you were involved in a serious accident and the police examiner discovers you have disabled your ABS, then your insurance would know. Mind you, that may be the least of your problems.

I may be guilty of not reading some things, but at least I can understand what I do read.

Report abuse