Letter: Shropshire school closures are anti-Christian
Saturday 12th March 2011, 11:34AM GMT.
Letter: I am the parent of two children who attend Onny C of E school which is one of the schools on Shropshire Council’s closure list. There will be many valid arguments given during the consultation period for not closing this excellent school.
A point I have not seen mentioned is the indisputable fact that my children and their friends, and also other parents and I, are having our religious beliefs prejudiced.
This shocking treatment will be taking place if Onny C of E School closes. The children of our school are only being offered free transport to a school without a Christian ethos.
The two Christian schools in our area would be able to accommodate possibly 30 children, thus increasing the council’s estimated travel costs.
If parents cannot afford to take their children to a Church of England School further afield these children would then be forced to attend a secular school, where they are guaranteed a space.
Surely this utter contempt for a person’s religious beliefs is an infringement of their equality and human rights.
To the council’s phrase “Every child matters” it should be added “as long as they have no religious beliefs”.
Patrick Giles
Craven Arms
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Let me get this right. Not only does the taxpayer have to provide special schools where you can have your children indoctrinated with the superstition of your choice, but you also want us to pay for transport too!
I think you need to enter the real world Patrick.
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lol
well said mate
why should the taxpayer subsidise churches ?
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What a load of rubbish. If you need to worship some imaginary bloke in the sky, surely you could make use of one of the many churches that are dotted around the landscape.
From the tone of your rant you would think that religion was the only subject taught in school.
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Of course the writer knows that all the children attending these schools are all good christians attending church every week along with thier Christian parents, funny how the church numbers does not reflect the amount wasted on christian schools.
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At last some one who has pointed out something which is very important .As stated the views of all parents should be considered but they are not.Alas some numpty will pop up and say schools should not be place of any religion .
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Sorry Mr Giles but this is nonsense. I say that as a Christian myself and it pains me that you should take such a stance.
It is within the purview of the Diocese to step in and increase funding to the school and, as far as I am aware, it has not made any comment on this.
Your flawed logic implies that children anywhere should be bussed to a faith school. As a non-Anglican would my children have such a right? what about Jewish or Moslem or Hindu families?
I agree wholeheartedly that faith schools provide a distinct part in education but please don’t claim that the economic realities facing councils and their effects have anything to do with religous freedom.
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Fair play Patrick, I’m with you on this one.
But first I don’t believe that religious beliefs should have any stature in our schools. Teaching religious education is good as it explains the religious beliefs of society. However, our children should be treated equally and not segregated by religious views. Remember children at this age are indoctrinated into religion by their parents, which may be totally different from the childs wants and needs.
I agree with your request simply because if any other religious group, not of British decent were to stamp their feet, then they would be heard. Keep on stamping Patrick, If the world’s gone mad, we may as well go with them.
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Amazing how non religious people can, or feel the need to ridicule or be plainly rather unpleasant to people who have a belief in order to get the agnostic or non believer view across.
These schools were set up as CofE schools if that no longer matters then the parents of all CofE schools should be polled and asked do they wish the school to remove themselves from CofE status.Then parents should be given access to a wider range of school be they CofE or catholic, Muslim etc etc or nothing at all .
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And religious people haver never ridiculed non religious?. Come on man!. There’s more fighting, death and misery caused by religion than anything else. The only good that came from religion is public holidays.
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And Christmas prezzies
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myth
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If only that was the case.
In actuality these faith schools have been feeding off the education system for years with extra funding and selective admissions.
I am really pleased for you Patrick. So strong is your committment you will now be home schooling your children or running your school with the support of like- minded parents and not using the religion as an excuse for getting more from our taxes than anyone else.
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Of course there would be none of this nonsense if we had a secular education system like France and the USA. I’m sick of subsidising so called “faith” schools. It’s divisive and selection by the back door… which of course is why Patrick is so keen. He thinks he’s getting something for nothing.
A child came to my house to play and said “I’m better than you, I’m a Catholic”. Little children don’t think that rubbish up themselves, they are taught it. At “faith” schools.
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Totally against state funding of any religious/faith schools – let alone free transport to them. Practise your religion by all means, but don’t ask me to pay for it.
Yes, Andrew, as your definition of ‘numpty’ is anyone who disagrees with you, I expect I must plead guilty.
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Well Kath I and most who have children in state education pay taxes so I fully, as many others support state funding of faith/religious schools and long may it continue.
With regards funded transporting for children to go to school this has always been the case especially children who attend village schools , and I would also add every time a village school closes and the children have to go to a school further away free transport will be laid on every school bus you see parked out side a school is taking children to school free of charge from all over the country and long may that continue .
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“Surely this utter contempt for a person’s religious beliefs is an infringement of their equality and human rights.”
Please do not misunderstand ‘Human Rights’ with, ‘I should be entitled to everything I want’.
Think to yourself, as a Christian, are you being discriminated against as a result of your religion? From what I can see, you’re not.
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As the majority of comments already state there is no place for religious bias in schools:
I would go so far as removing all public funds to schools of any faith that wish to indoctrinate children…
It is simply not the job of the state to promote fairy tales and superstition.
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One could equally argue that children have not matured enough to have truly informed beliefs. That is why governments across the world impose ages of consent and majority – in the UK 16 and 18 respectively. Many in this country are quick to attack Muslim schools and to accuse them of indoctrination, yet few would so readily attack Christian schools in the same way. Faith schools are there to placate and serve the beliefs of parents and to send a message to pupils that they are compelled to hear. It is that which is more likely a breach of human rights.
Children attending non faith schools have choices which those attending faith schools do not. I think the original letter is using the smokescreen of religious oppression to protest about the reality of a school that lacks financial viability. Quite a shameful abuse of the writer’s faith to try and stir up an issue that does not exist.
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Amazing to see the amount of anti-Christian sentiment in response to this letter. If you have to reduce Christianity into a charicature in order to mock and ridicule it you are merely showing that your own views are not thought through enough to stand up to reality of what Christians believe. Sadly it’s much easier to pretend Christians are all idiots than it is to actually fine out what we believe and if there is any truth in that.
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Matthew,
It’s not anti-Christian – it’s anti-indoctrination.
I’m an atheist – but I’m perfectly happy for my children to be tauht about various faith systems and their history.
When they are at an age when they can make a decision for themsleves I’ll respect whatever decision they make, but it would be quite wrong for me to impose my views on them – and it would be quite wrong to inpose the views of any religious group to do so either.
I have a very good idea about what Christians believe – and I understand the differences that have led to schisms between faith groups. My views will stand up against any of these beliefs – not least because they are based upon hard, measurable evidence – none of which I can see in religious tracts, scripture etc. Instead, I see texts which have been heavily edited and politicised over the centuries, and which cannot therefor be relied upon.
Take the King James bible for example – it is a book borne out of political expediency, designed as it was to settle warring factions with the established church at the time.
Unlike many of those who do have faith in the supernatural, if I see alternative solid evidence to the contrary, I will change my view. In the unlikely event that an experiment or observation shows that your God, or any other God does exist, then I’ll be obliged to start believing in his/her existence.
I believe that we are moving steadily closer to understanding how the universe began, and thus far there has been no need to involve any God in that process to make it credible.
Yet astonishingly, due to what must be blind faith to the exclusion of all fact, we still have some people who believe the Earth is just a few thousand years old!
That is the reality of what some Christians believe, and the reality of what is being taught as science in some of our ‘faith schools’. Why should the rest of us pick up the extra costs to allow schools to brainwash children in this way?
Should I expect free transport for my daughter to allow her to travel to the school of her choice based upon her academic abilities? You and the letter writer seem to expect that only those who make their choice of secondary school based on religious choice should expect such preferential choice for their child.
It should be perfectly possible in terms of available time for you to allow your child to have a good education at a balanced non-faith school, whilst also allowing time outside of school to impose your religious beliefs upon them if you insist on so doing – but please – don’t expect me to subsidise that indoctrination for you.
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Excellent post.
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Very eloquently spoken. Why should people who have not encountered or experienced Christianity be qualified to criticise. The fact is many of them are going by hearsay. It is very clear in society that children are not taught the difference between right and wrong, nor that the results of that wrongdoing can have consequences. They are like ostriches with their head in the sand – simply living in denial.
The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord. People die through lack of knowledge!
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What an utterly ridiculous comment: “It is very clear in society that children are not taught the difference between right and wrong, nor that the results of that wrongdoing can have consequences”.
If you are implying that ethics are only taught through faith, then I would like to pick you up on that point and quote David Thorne, who is a master of witty sarcasm:
“Practising a system of ethics based on the promise of a reward, in your case an afterlife, is certainly preferable to practising a system of ethics based on it simply being the right thing to do”.
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Ridiculous or not, the evidence is there! Even if you consider it to be a myth, children are taught right from wrong. Of course there are some who will go on to rebel against that teaching and then they might wonder why they get punished.
A secular society does not teach this and an anything-is-permissible attitude prevails in a climate where no boundaries are shown.
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Not seen that David Thorne quote before, very witty and spot on.
Even if there was such a thing as heaven, I wouldn’t want to ever go there… it’d be full of christians.
People are free to believe whatever they want, but if I believed in some magic man who lives in the sky, I’d keep it to myself. I certainly wouldn’t bleat on about how I was a persecuted minority when the state declines to provide me with the means to disseminate my insane and outmoded philosophy.
I say bring back the lions…
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Very eloquently said. I totally agree with you!
Indeed, how can anyone who has not experienced the reality of be living, loving relationship with Jesus Christ even comment? – they are not qualified.
Children are not taught the difference between right and wrong, good and evil or even the consequences that occur.
Is it any wonder that the country is in severe moral decline, the further it turns away from God?
The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.
People perish through lack of knowledge!
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….and presumably anyone who has experienced a relationship with an imaginary friend is entitled to comment twice?
As someone who has great difficulty in understanding belief in the supernatural I’d be grateful if you could explain the apparent contradiction between a “living, loving relationship with Jesus Christ” and your statement that “The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God.”
I can only imagine that to be a true Christian one has to be able to conform simultaneously with at least two diametrically opposed value systems, or as we laymen call it “hypocrisy”.
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On this occasion to ‘Fear’ God really means know God and the only way to know him is through Jesus Christ – no contradiction there.
The Bible tells us not to be conformed to the pattern of this world so the real message of Christianity is NO COMPROMISE.
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Any education that’s state funded should be secular, full stop. You’re free to continue the process of indoctrinating young, impressionable minds in the privacy of your own home or place of chosen religious worsip. You’re also free to start your own faith school, if you feel so strongly about it, so what’s your problem?
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I think it is important that children are educated about religion – it’s important that they understand what people believe and what they claim as evidence for it – even it is is unfathomable to them why anyone would believe such things.
If we don’t educate children about the sort of people, and the belief systems that they will encounter throughout their lives, we will see more of the sort of bigotry and prejudice that too often inhabits these pages.
However, it’s one thing to educate, but quite another to indoctrinate – and ‘faith’ schools are too much inclined to do the latter.
I’m of the opinion that religious indoctrination is in effect a form of child abuse. Richard Dawkins in his excellent book ‘The God Delusion’ points out that ‘there are no Christian children, nor Muslim children, nor Jewish children’ – instead there are simply children of Christian/Muslim/Jewish parents.
Adults are at liberty to make their own choices about religious belief – it is quite wrong to impose such views on children.
There are many types of schools available to our children. As far as free transport is concerned, why should a child with an aptitude for sport, or an aptitdue for music, or a high intellectual ability not also get free transport to a Sports College/Performing Arts college/Grammar School?
The reason of course, is that we cannot afford this – so why does the letter writer think that those with a belief in the supernatural should be singled out for special treatment?
Christians are being treated in exactly the same way as other groups – get over it!
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“Sadly it’s much easier to pretend Christians are all idiots than it is to actually fine [sic] out what we believe and if there is any truth in that.”
You are missing the point. Whatever the validity or otherwise of religious beliefs, state funded education should teach all children about all religions, but ‘faith’ schools, if allowed at all, should not be state funded.
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Faith schools should be a thing of the past now. Young minds need to learn facts, not fairy tales.
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I do think all schools should be secular personally, all should teach RE but it should encompass all major faiths and CoE schools should be phased out over time i believe
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…and what happens if you are not a person of faith, it seems that you are suggesting that their freedom or expression and thought are not allowed as per the ECHR?
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Preferably a very short time.
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Why not let the state pay for state schools and the church pay for Christian schools? Oh – the church has no money? Welcome to the real world!
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I went to a C of E primary school in the 1960s.
Fortunately by the time I was a teen I did not feel that any form of elitism was a good thing in this world.
Neither did the school have a certain middle class intake nor any extra funding in those days and I remember that the same amount of time was spent on christian teaching at all state primary schools.
Gradually with less belief in christian religion and at the same time there being a wider range of religious upbringing amongst our children we moved towards this segregation.
I think pretty well everyone posting here seems to agree that this is not the best outcome.
We do not pay our taxes for those who wish to indulge in any form of religious teaching though a basic knowledge of the subject is important mainly due to the affect it has on our world politically and the division and unrest it seems to inevitably create.
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Well said Port Hill Boy. I’d also like to know how many of the attendees of this school and their parents also support the local churches in their attendance and financially. Rural schools are closing for the same reason that rural churches are closing – not enough people go there.
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Surely a quick prayer would stop the school from closing, thought about trying that before moaning to the papers? No? Then it must be gods will that the schools are shutting surely.
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other PR disaster from Shropshire Council
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Peter once you hand over your child to a school does he/she not undergo an indoctrination, by the teachers or head of that school?? faith or not. How many times has a child returned home and said we are doing or supporting something, as an example “this charity” because the teacher, school, said it is a worthy one ? may be at odds with what you as a parent think is a worthy cause but go against the will of that school at your peril .
A good example was when the hunting debate was on we had countless of incidents country wide where teachers had said to a child you or your family should be ashamed at what you and your family see as sport ie country blood sports . The teacher has the right of an opinion but who is he/she to force it on a child at school? .
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Having spent many years as a teacher I cannot recall any occassion when a child has been discriminated against because they did not contribute to a charity event or when we told a child that they should be ashamed of their family beliefs.I am quite sure no responsible school would let that happen. Children are taught to be tolerant of the beliefs and practices of others even if they disagree with them. Older children are taught to debate the issues using well thought out arguements for and against, something some adults could try.
However I think that is getting away from the point of this discussion – should the state subsidise faith schools?
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With respect you could only base this on the number of schools you were in . With regards the rest of your post a little rose tinted glasses I think . In the words often used by the church we are all human and all have our frailties and to assume a certain section of society cant be accused or guilty of discrimination , bullying, imposing an opinion , due to the role they play in society is a little dangerous.
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“With respect you could only base this on the number of schools you were in”
Whereas you, Andrew, have experience of every school in the country, I suppose.
With respect, I think MJ’s experience is a bit more relevant than yours in this respect – it also confirms my experience as a parent, teacher and governor at a number of schools over the school lives of my children.
(No, neither they nor I got kicked out, we moved around a lot!)
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Andrew,
You criticise MJ for basing his/her view on personal experience of teaching – but what is your view based upon.
I accept that my children will encounter all sorts of people with all sorts of views during their lieves, at school and beyond – as stated, that is precisely why I favour religious education.
However, indoctrination goes a step further in that it tells children to favour a particular belief system over others.
If teachers were to use the schools in the way you suggest to manipulate views against hunting for example (or indeed in favour of hunting) they would leave themsleves wide open to allegations of professional misconduct, and quite rightly so – but why should religious indoctrination be the only area which is exempt from such regulation and scrutiny?
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Kath I have never said this happens in all schools however teachers are human are they not ? so the law of averages many will hold views some unacceptable of which they have a duty to keep to themselves. however I find it very hard to believe all would.
As for MJ’s view that” I cannot recall any occassion when a child has been discriminated against because they did not contribute to a charity event.
Letter from my child’s school
states we are holding a non-uniform day it is hoped each child will raise a total of £5 not only does it tell an individual how much to sponsor your child minimum £1, it also states “we trust like US you will think it is a worth while cause”.
My point is if I said to my child NO which I would not , then he would not be permitted to attend school in casual clothes but would have to attend in full uniform hence,
1.They are telling my child what is a worth while cause.
2.He is being discriminated against for not contributing to the charity that the school approves of by having to wear uniform.
3. The school opens up the opportunity through discriminating against for not supporting the charity of being bullied .
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Well Andrew, I have to say I agree with you on that point. (Non-uniform day for charity). If a fundraising event is to be held, I think the children and/or their parents should have a say – even a vote – over what cause to support.
Did you politely suggest this to the school?
However, that is a one-off event, not at all the same as having a school ethos specifically devoted to one religion or another.
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The point id like to make is this. The reasons i chose Onny school for my children is because of its Church of England Ethos, rural location, family atmosphere and the fantastic relationships the teachers and staff have with the children and parents. The council have proposed to close this school and give the children a guarenteed place at our local town school which has none of these things and is under measures to improve. The council will pay for all transport costs to this school but will not recongnise ANY of the reasons why people chose Onny in the first place.
If this was affecting your children would you be happy for this to happen?
So yes i think its right for Mr Giles to be angery that his beliefs are not being recognised becuase the alternative being offered is not at all what any of us have chosen for our children.
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Laura,
I chose my daughter’s school due to its academic reputation. It’s further away than the default school, and of course I have to cover the excess transport costs.
Why should you be any different simply because you believe in a supernatural being for whose existence you have no proof?
I have solid evidence to prove the quality of the school my daughter goes to, in the form of league tables, academic results etc., and it is a very popular school for that reason.
You talk of the Church of England ethos, which I presume is a hint of some sort of moral code. What grounds do you have for assuming higher morals amongst Christians when compared to Jews, Muslims or atheists? I would suggest that the idea that religions in some way ‘own’ morality is arrogant nonsense.
My understanding is that children sent to a ‘secular’ school will have a more than adequate religious education available to them, though it will inevitably cover more than the beliefs of just one religious group.
What do you have to fear from that though? Do you consider such knowledge a danger to your children?
You’ll still have the option to indoctrinate your kids in your own time and at your own expense – but I wonder, will their broader knowledge gained at school make that a little harder for you, and is that your real concern?
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It is only right that if you chose the school for its specific ethos just like anyone else who wants something on top of what we all pay for YOU pay for it either with your own time taking over the running of the school or your own money.
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A bit confused…are you suggesting we pay extra for a decent education?
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There shouldn’t be any religious schools of whatever denomination/creed in this country. They all breed contempt of the other religions and perpetuate a Stone Age belief. By all means believe in your fairy tales but don’t expect me to buy into them. If parents insist on their offspring being taught/indoctrinated then do it at home or in the church/mosque/hall/synagogue/shack of your choice.
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Is anyone else getting fed up with hearing Christians (in particular) bleating that they are being discriminated against because of something or other?
This time it’s because the taxpayer is no longer to foot the bill to have their children indoctrinated, last week in the national news it was a couple of barmy Bible bashers complaining that they were not allowed to foster children if they were going to teach them that homosexuality is evil.
In neither case is it discrimination, but boy, do the Christians love to spin it that way because all the three Abrahamic religions just love an excuse to be able to call themselves a martyr – especially when their freedom to be intolerant or hateful towards others is threatened.
These days Christians in particular seem to have got together to convince themselves they are being persecuted by an increasingly secular nation. It’s bizarre when you consider how rooted Christianity especially and religion generally is in this country.
In fact, the closure of this school is an attack on no-one’s beliefs – more a consequence of budgetary cuts – and the court ruling in the fostering case was a judgement in favour of human tolerance and decency in the face of bigoted and blinkered thinking.
It seems believers all over Britain are preparing to play the religious persecution card whenever something happens that they don’t like. I guess we’ll be hearing a lot more of these kind of complaints in the coming years.
I really don’t care what people believe so long as it doesn’t have a negative effect on anyone else, but don’t try and make out that you’re being persecuted because you believe in your imaginary friend. If you really think you are being persecuted in this country, why not try being a Christian in Pakistan for a while – and see what it’s really like!
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Do not people of faith (whatever) also pay Tax. So what is all this business of, don’t ask us to pay for it, about? Why should the secular or anti religious ethos have the defining voice in this debate?
Why indoctrinate with secularist views and claim the moral high ground.
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Yes, everyone pays tax, but once control of it is handed over to the State, none of us get to say “I demand that you spend my bit in this particular way”. For some reason, the letter writer seems to think that’s how the system works.
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Equally those promoting secularism.
If none of us get a say then we have no democracy in this country.
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You’re ignoring the fact that the letter writer is complaining about a very, very specific issue, which is nothing to do with wider democracy.
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No I do not think I am, if none of us have a say then we do not have a democracy, we are just peons living under the enforced rule of the state.
Your argument is that we do not have a say in how our government chooses to use our taxes to educate our children! if you are right then there is no democracy in this country.
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Yes we all pay tax Ken and if we want extras like a selective school and certain ethos we should pay extra for it.
Those who do not hold religious views do not hold it against those who do but as taxpayers expect schooling if provided by the state to be equal provision to every child and not selective and this has not been the case for sometime.
The writer of this original letter claims that having his children at a faith school is a human right. It is not. Religion is a choice and not a necessity.
Morals, manners and citizenship are not the preserve of religious teaching.
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Sorry wrong! freedom of religion IS considered a Fundamental Human Right! Check out the ECHR and the EU Charta of Fundamental Rights.
From a religious perspective the argument could be reversed the state takes our taxes and then insists that we send our children to a secular school thus denying the right to bring up our children as —– fill in the blank.
What does equal provision of schooling mean equally secularist. That is not equal it is imposing an alternative world view on children of religious parents it is undermining their religious freedom to bring up their children as —– fill in the blank.
Agreed morals and manners are not the preserve of religious teaching, however the teaching of citizenship in schools is questionable as official guidelines quite clearly stipulate that students must demonstrate a concern and commitment for the VALUES laid out in the curriculum in order to achieve a good assessment grade. That raises the question of the values stipulated and how they might impact on the religious values of the student, if these values are secular then they obviously might have an impact. The Crick Report said “We aim at no less than a change in the political culture of this country both nationally and locally”.
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Ken,
‘freedom of religion IS considered a Fundamental Human Right!’
Indeed. But I don’t think that extends to an obligation on those of us that don’t believe in the supernatural to subsidise that do.
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Thus turning your question around does this mean that Christians have an obligation to subsidise those who do not believe?
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How sad some of these people sound did they or their children not take part in nativity plays mary joseph baby jesus the excitement getting dressed up before family arrived. making cardboardcrosses for easter, harvest festivals delivering the fruit and veg to the old. singing hymns the joy of all these things i have seen many times in my 70years. this is our history what makes country people special watching out for each other the standard of education is top quality. what do these people tell small children when mum/dad or their pet die. i know my grandchildren would rather think they were in gods care remember good grades is about a job but the primary school teaches about the person you are someone said the churches were empty a lot of people drink but pubs are closing empty most of the time.Savings have to be made but its only a small amount over the years which would be saved one bankers bonus would keep these schools going for years.
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Yes Gill, my children did enjoy nativity plays etc – although their school was not a C of E or other religious flavour. I have always objected to some of the Easter celebrations though, telling children their sins were so bad a man had to be tortured to death to redeem them. Very gruesome and unsuitable.
However, I don’t see any problem with schools celebrating the festivals of other religions too, in fact I think they should.
As far as dying pets go, Clare Rayner wrote a brilliant book for small children – the Body Book – which deals with death in a very sensitive and non-religious way.
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I chose to send both my children to Onny school because of it being a rural school and having a very good reputation, being a church of England school was a bonus,Onny has a church next door where the children can attend the church at Christmas and perform their nativity play in front of their parents.Onny school teaches religion like any other school as it follows the national curriculum , the children do NOT spend all day praying!
There are a lot of reasons to keep Onny open including the facilities it provides, the very good reputation, it makes the Onibury community, it has a toddlers group,amongst other things.
Mr Giles is making the point that children’s religious beliefs should not ignored and everyone should note that nearly all the schools on the closure list are church of England.
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how would people feel if i opened a muslim school in shrewsbury and got state aid to support it???
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But are there not several Islamic state aided schools. There must be one at least within reach of Shrewsbury.
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But we are not opening Church of England schools just trying to save them and like I said before it is not the main reason why parents want to keep Onny school open, it’s because it’s a village school with a very good reputation.
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As a practising Christian, I found the above to be an interesting exchange of views, despite the predictable rant by those of an ill informed and secular disposition against faith schools and in particular against those espousing Christian beliefs.
This regrettable attitude has been allowed to prevail for years and the decline in religious beliefs is an indication of how morally bankrupt this country and our society have become. It is a matter of infinite regret that there are not far more individuals, like Patrick Giles, who are prepared to stand up and say what they believe in for the benefit not of themselves, of their children – displaying that most fundamental of Christian beliefs – charity.
The above apart, it is quite clear that the ill-thought out primary schools closure plans, as presently proposed by Shropshire Council, have nothing to do with the “educational experience” on offer at the schools so affected. If it were, then Onny School wouldn’t even be on the hit list in the first place. All that this is about is saving money; as for representatives of the Council stating that they are concerned for the children and parents who will be affected by their ill judged proposals, pull the other one.
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“…the decline in religious beliefs is an indication of how morally bankrupt this country and our society have become.”
Why do religious groups persistently try to claim ownership of morality?
How much unnecessary human suffering has been inflicted over the millennia in the name of this, that and the other god through war, crusades, religious persecution and terrorism? How’s that for moral bankruptcy?
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All spot on, divorced people now see it as a life style choice, unmarried mothers the same, it shows a lack of decent family values and morals , I do wonder if we had the same attitude in italy with regards unmarried mothers whether we would have as many clogging up the systems and abusing it as we do now.
learn to have a little shame please with regards your chosen lifestyles.
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I quite agree, Andrew. All these women getting themselves pregnant without being married, you wouldn’t catch men getting involved with anything shameful like unmarried sex.
In case you didn’t catch the sarcasm there … the vast majority of unmarried mothers were either married or in what they believed was a long-term relationship when they got pregnant. The fathers mostly died, cleared off or in some cases the mothers realised what an idle useless lump they had landed themselves with and gave them the boot.
Strange how women always get the blame.
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Highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe at one point Kath and of course the guy should shoulder some blame and pay for that mistake, however please remember it is the woman who needs to take more care as last time I looked she had more chance of becoming pregnant and lumbered with an illegitimate child . What a very one sided view you have kath men died I assume they were the good ones then or, cleared off, or were useless really? . I think you will find the blame can be shared . However we still have the problem of OK “couples” choosing to go different ways when they get a tad bit bored and fancy a change women as well as men are guilty of this was it not a woman who coined the phrase I want “ME TIME” , really when you have a family it should be family time 100%.
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Jonathan,
We’re not ill-informed – we simply have come to a different conclusion to you having read the same books that you base your belief on.
The suggestion that somehow morality and charity are owned, or even inherited from, religious belief is an inaccurate and arrogant one.
Are you suggesting that people with no belief in the supernatural cannot be charitable? I would suggest they might be more likely to be so.
After all, religious people look for their ultimate reward in the place they call heaven – those of us without religious belief know that this life is all we have – so we need to make the best of it, and the best way to an easier and happier life is to look after our fellow man.
If you take a quality such as altruism, which Christians might also lay claim to as a ‘Christian’ value, you might be surprised to find that even in the animal kingdom examples of apparent altruism can be found – with, for eaxample stronger, more dominant animals giving food to those lower down the pecking order.
Turning to anthropology, if we look at primitive societies, most of whom have had no exposure to the Christian stories, we find that they live in family groups and extended family groups. That’s not ‘Christian Family Values’ at work – instead it’s simply that they have learned over millenia, as we have, that the family group is the most efficient unit for our survival – it has nothing to do with an imposed Christian view of morality.
I suggest you broaden your view to take in some literature which challenges your religious beliefs – there are numerous well-written books which do so. Funnily enough I’ve met a number of relgiious people who refuse to read them. I wonder what they feel they have to fear from knowledge?
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“This regrettable attitude has been allowed to prevail for years”
Well excuse me – this isn’t some kind of fundamentalist country where being disrespectful about the state religion is against the law. I’ll hold whatever atittude I like, thank you very much, ‘allowed’ or not.
“and the decline in religious beliefs is an indication of how morally bankrupt this country and our society have become.”
The Taliban are about as religious as it gets. Shall we all convert to their version of their religion?
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Kath you ‘re wasting breathe on the likes of posters like Jonathan. He purely reads what he wants to read. Some very valid and realistic points have been made here and I like others have maintained that we have nothing against people choosing to call themselves christians or whatever.
The issue is about choices and costs and those parents who are committed to the C of E angle are quite welacome to home school or run schools themselves as I understand it, so what’s the problem?
I take the view that society today is a much healthier and better informed and way less discriminating place actually Jonathan.
I suggest that the parents of the school that feel able to call themselves ‘practising christians’ are in an ideal place to get together perhaps not less effectively in prayer but actually running the school if none of other state schools are suitable for them.
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“and the decline in religious beliefs is an indication of how morally bankrupt this country and our society have become.”
Or how we have moved into the 21st centuary where there one is free to choose, i would love to believe in a god but have looked for proof and have asked numerous times for a sign as yet i have found none. I dont do blind faith.
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Surely school closures are anti-school as opposed to anti-Christian.
Christian Churches being forced to close…now that would be anti-Christian.
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Many thanks to the Shropshire star for publishing my original letter,and also thanks must go to the people who are fighting this unjust closure (you know who you are)
I appreciate the support i have recieved from the many posters and i also thank those for their contributions who disagree with my views on the closure of Onny C of E school.
What does surprise me though is the hatred towards Christianity that comes across in some posts.
I never said or implied that my children were “praying to God” all day.
As all parents know the syllabus takes in the teachings of many religions and cultures.
My point is that Onny CofE provides my children with an excellent foundation in the Christian ethos of caring and charity and a good moral code which God willing will carry them through life.
It was stated in a previous council document that if a CofE school closed, places at another CofE school would be made available.This has now been removed.
In these days of rising costs parents who do not have the luxury of owning a car or are unable to afford the fuel to run them, will have no alternative but to accept the place at the secular school.
This would be against their wishes as they chose Onny for many reasons including the Christian ethos at the school.
Finally to the respondents who stated that Christians are praying to “a supernatural being” or the “magic man in the sky”I pity your young children on Christmas morning when Father Christmas hasn’t been or the young impressionable child who loses a tooth and places it under their pillow only for the tooth fairy not to visit.
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You appear to be comparing your belief in God with children believing in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. Are you admitting that none of them actually exist? You may have just disproved your own argument.
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Patrick,
It’s perfectly acceptable for my kids to believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy when they are young – it’s abit of fun.
However, as they get older and question the existence of these, I’ll ultimately gently tell them the truth – it’s part of growing up.
I hope you would agree that the decision over whether or not to believe in a god is entirely a more serious matter and a complicated decision – but your comments make me doubt that.
Similarly, there is no practical scientific evidence for the existence of your god or any other – given that, it seems perfectly reasonable to refer to such deities as supernatural – it’s a wholly accurate description.
As previously stated, I’m happy for my kids to be educated in all these beliefs – including the idea that there is no god, and let them decide what they want to believe when they have the intellectual maturity and knowledge to do so.
To steer a child towards one belief system, or to encourage them to think that religious belief and morality are inseperable, as faith schools often do, is actually to undermine balance and bring divisiveness into their education, and is not to be encouraged.
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“Finally to the respondents who stated that Christians are praying to “a supernatural being” or the “magic man in the sky”I pity your young children on Christmas morning when Father Christmas hasn’t been or the young impressionable child who loses a tooth and places it under their pillow only for the tooth fairy not to visit.”
….a logical extension to your argument would be that those same impressionable children should still believe in Father Christmas or the tooth fairy when they reach adulthood.
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I am afraid I have been misinterpreted.
My point is that all the replies who say that by sending my children to a C 0f E School suggest that somehow I am forcing their beliefs of someone who may or may not exist upon them.
Aren’t some of us guilty of this?
When we encourage beliefs that bring joy and happiness to our children. ie. Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy.
God is a Deity and not a make believe character and everyone is entitled to believe or not believe.
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This is a debate to save these schools on the list which includes the wakeman which i attended after passing a school exam in early 1950 it was shrewsbury technical then such a great time. I appreciate the writers of most letters are atheists this is great thats their choice as long as same people do not have double standards and go in churches for weddings burials swear on the bible to join services or in court say in hospitals etc atheists are what you are I have a. great friends in many different religions please put your energy into saving the wakeman for the younger generation whilst we concentrate on all the schoolsI was at the shirehall in pouring rain freezing cold for hours and im over 70 would you be that committed or do you not care. SAVE OUR SCHOOLS.
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Gill,
I was married in a register office, I do occasionally attend other people’s weddings and funerals at churches etc. (but only out of respect for their views).
On the only occasion I appeared in court (as a witness in a motoring case) I affirmed rather than swore on the bible, and
I did the same when required to swear an oath as an executor of a will.
I always declare myself as ‘no religion’ when asked on official forms, and will do so with the census.
As for my funeral, I’ll leave that to others to decide. I won’t be there – or anywhere else for that matter…!
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Atheists shouldn’t be allowed in Churches and Christians should be forced into them every Sunday !
But as for your main point, we should save our schools – religious leaders over the years have always misunderstood the tracts the prophets gave them – there is no *real* afterlife, it’s figurative, it’s our children who live after us; and we through our actions deliver them into heaven or hell, here on earth.
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“My point is that Onny CofE provides my children with an excellent foundation in the Christian ethos of caring and charity and a good moral code which God willing will carry them through life.”
I’m just sorry you have such a low opinion of non-religious schools – I wonder how those teachers feel about your implication that they do not provide such an excellent foundation and moral code?
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