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Bishop’s gay marriage views do nothing to support bible teachings
Monday 20th February 2012, 8:40AM GMT.
I’m not a religious man writes Dave Burrows.
I believe the Church does an awful lot of good in the community. I believe faith can pull people through difficult times.
But I also believe organised religion is too inflexible; too unwilling to bend from an outdated moral code; too drawn to righteous indignation which does not hold up to scrutiny.
The Roman Catholic Bishop of Shrewsbury has done nothing to change that opinion.
This week he has decided to jump up and down about plans which could see gay marriage legalised.
The Right Reverend Mark Davies (not sure if the ‘right’ refers to his politics) says it would represent ‘nothing less than a seismic shift in the foundations of our society’.
Blimey. Last time that happened was when the Romans came for a holiday.
He goes on to say allowing same-sex weddings will ‘undermine the institution of marriage’ and ‘obscure its identity for years to come’.
Have you ever heard such utter rot in your life?
What is the institution of marriage? I always thought it was two people who loved each other devoting their lives to each other and pledging to be true. Isn’t marriage seen as the extension of Man’s love of God? Well, God is always depicted as a man. So…
Perhaps I was wrong. Clearly only a man and a woman should be allowed to marry. That way we can guarantee there’ll be no divorces. No domestic abuse. No-one trapped in a loveless union.
Or perhaps marriage is a precursor to starting a family. So only people who are planning to start a family should be allowed to marry. In which case any women who cannot conceive should be banned from getting wed (and of course anyone who has had a child out of wedlock should be immediately burned at the stake).
As for ‘obscuring the identity’ of marriage, maybe you, Rev Davies, should move with the times and adapt your teachings, so that there is not obscurity. Maybe you should teach children that love is unconditional and not something that follows a set of rules.
Certainly not a set of rules drawn up in the 1600s and based on something someone may or may not have said over a thousand years earlier. What does the bible say about speed limits on the motorway? Anyone?
Like I said, I’m not religious. But I seem to remember from Sunday School that the teachings of Jesus were all about love and tolerance.
Were they not?
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Well said..
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It is not well said.
There is ebery reason to think that there would be a seismic shift in society if same sex couples were allowed to marry in the Christian Church.
God ordained that marriage was between a man and a woman for the procreation of children and for their mutual comfort.
He did not ordain marriage between two people of the same sex.
Children need the complimentary influence of a man and a woman.
If the rules were changed we would have children of age 5 years old being taught that the king can fall in love with a king, and princess with a princess.
I am not exaggerating, these books have already been published and sent to some schools.
We would not be allowed to say husband or wife anymore.
These facts are being already circulated by Stonewall and his ilk who have great influence in high places.
Those who wish their children to be taught about true married life and the good fairy stories where princes fall in love with princesses better wake up soon and do something before it is too late.
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Where is this evidence that children ‘need’ the influence of both sexes? I was brought up in a loving single parent environment, and am a fulfilled, healthy adult, contributing positively to society. I’m sure I am not alone there.
In your argument, I still don’t hear what ‘seismic shift’ would ensue. Yes, perhaps a King may fall in love with a King… yes, perhaps we may have to say ‘wife and wife’. But that’s just terminology. If loving relationships were abound, who really cares? I’m sure that if there is a God, we will be measured much more by our good deeds and endeavours to make the world a better place. Judging others on who they fall in love with really shouldn’t fall into those categories.
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Stonewall Jackson has returned ???!!
I always said the South would rise again !
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Can you advise to which schools books about a king marrying a king and a princess marrying a princess have been sent?
I’m just a little concerned that you might have made that up…
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What fairy story are you referring to Mags? One with princes and princesses in? Or the one with the invisible Skydaddy?
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The past is a foreign county, they do things differently there.
To which, the Bishop and his followers have an Indefinite Leave to Remain Visa.
I believe many of them have applied for Naturalisation and been successful.
I wish them well, but I wish they wouldn’t try and interfere in the running of other countries.
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I totally agree with this. Far too much of the Church’s time and energy goes into this outdated debate- surely those resources should be put where they’re really needed. Move on, people!
Also, I’ve just never understood the audacity of feeling entitled to judge or condemn any loving and committed relationship- in all their diverse and wonderful forms.
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Very true Jess. Far more issues are worthy of the Church’s time than this. I could name them but I would be here all day!
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The issue is not whether Gay Marriage should be allowed, surely today’s society and culture insist it rightly should. But for a secular society to insist that religious communities should abandon years of faith and doctrine to be forced to accept something it does not believe in is no different than Religious Law being enforced above secular law.
We are slipping towards a new Cromwellian era, which was neither productive nor needs repeating.
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You make a valid point, apart from the Cromwellian hypothesis. We as a people, are far removed from the hysterics, and superstition that were prevalant in that period of history.
I think that we are reaching a point as a people, where to question authority, whether that may be supernatural or earthly bound is a natural thing. To hope for an almighty to pluck us from our earthly endeavours into the peace of an ever loving “God”, and an eternity of grace, is to give into the fears of our own helplessnes.
The only thing that keeps religion alive, is that those that fear an endless darkness at the end of what for most is an uneventful and fruitless life, whilst given a large portion of “what I was told must be the truth, because it was spoken by those I trust” is horrifying, not comforting.
Fear of the unknown is the key. Accept that it’s all coincidence, and you will be saved from yourself, and those around you whom readily deal in superstition. At the end of the day, it is easier to believe than not.
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As I understand it, the proposal is that those churches who wish to conduct gay marriage services should be allowed to do so under the law, and that those who do not wish to do so are allowed to continue to decline to do so.
So where is anyone insisting that religious communities abandon anything? Surely all that is being abandoned is the ability of one religious community to impose its views on another.
This has nothing to do with secular law – it’s a dispute between two religious factions…
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I suspect far more share the Bishop’s concerns about this issue than feel able to share them fot fear of articles such as this being written about them by our ‘liberal’ press.
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Do you suggest all opinions against the Bishop be silenced? I imagine you would. Thank goodness for the ‘liberal’ press.
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Well said Dave, an excellent, well-written article! (That surprised you didn’t it?!)
The worrying thing about the views of that backward-thinking Bishop is that some people will agree with him!
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Well, Dave Burrows, you remember wrong. Jesus was not all about “love and tolerance” – he was totally intolerant of sin, and he said “if you love Me, you will keep my Commandments.” He also handed His own authority to teach to His Church: “He that hears you, hears Me… and the One who sent Me.” Not to mention: “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church…”
I can’t find your other article online, the one with the crazy headline along the lines that “love has no rules” (tell that to the woman whose husband runs off with a younger model) but from what I’ve read so far of your writings, you’re not in the right job, darling.
Luv (with no rules) n’ stuff…
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I think someone needs a hug.
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Brilliant article! If only everyone thought this way. Love is simple, if two people that love each other wish to get married, what exactly is the problem?? Don’t they have hareems in other cultures, does that mean they will go to hell? Oh, but wait, they have a different God don’t they, so the ‘rules’ are probably different there. Yes, very true about the motorway speed limits :P the world is constantly evolving and socially changing, we must evolve with it…in a hundred years time who knows what might have changed, but I’m sure that if I was around I would keep an open mind…
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He has not decided to jump and down he has given an opinion . An opinion many non Catholics go along with too.
We will not be silenced , we will campaign against any change to the law .
To those who object to our actions YOU get over it, why should we as you accept anything? that we see as wrong and immoral.
“The world is constantly evolving and socially changing, we must evolve with it”
you mean the UK??
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Maybe we can agree. He didn’t decide to jump up and down.
He merely skipped.
As for your other points. You are correct, you should carry on protesting over matters that most people couldn’t give a fig about and that are not within your remit. You most definitely should not have relevance forced upon you.
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“Most people couldn’t give a fig about”in your opinion
Church attendance is not evidence that Christians are a minority group clearly you have an unhealthy hatred towards them for reason know only to yourself.
The Bishop voiced an opinion he is permitted to, many agree with him many do not, evidence however that those that agree far out way those that do not if we are talking globally or indeed if people in the UK were not afraid to speak out.
I was in a job for five years and was told that i need to curtail my opinions on everything from gay, immigration, to women in the work place i was even told off for asking a guy in a work interview if he though he was a grafter , so i would say the majority in employment in certain sectors keep the opinion they have to themselves which is wrong.
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You have nothing to base your opinion of my view of Christians upon. The truth is to the contrary.
If you believe in the Bible you know that God gave Jesus to us, even though we were sinners. So that we may be saved. In this way we see that intolerance of sin is fair enough, but intolerance of sinners is not Christian.
You are forgiven.
It is from my experience that I consider the majority of people;
a) Don’t really care what homosexuals do
b) Don’t consider homosexuals relationships are less valid than heterosexual relationships.
c) Consider homosexuals should have the same legal rights as heterosexuals
I don’t dispute the Bishop’s right to say what he wants and I think it is perfectly reasonable to say that if a church does not accept homosexual relationships then it doesn’t need to hold the wedding ceremony in it’s property.
However, marriage is a legal status and the Bishop has confused the terms ‘marriage’ with ‘ceremony’.
Just as the Bishop has every right to do what he wants in church, so government has every right to do what it wants with the state. And if that is to legalise homosexual marriage, so be it.
Numbers don’t come into it btw. We vote for politicians to ‘do the right thing’, irrespective of whether we agree with what they actual deem is in our best interests.
Your anecdote does go some way to explaining how you have got here from there. And I am sorry you feel that way about the various diverse groups that make up society. Perhaps the grace of Jesus will someday be visited upon you.
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The only sensible letter here, a man with beliefs in all quarters like myself. I say stand up for your beliefs and don’t be silenced.
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And absolutely no one wants to listen to your 14th century opinion. Burn them – they are all witches!
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What an unpleasant person you must be to work alongside MBTIE, spouting off jurassic opinions about immigration, gays, women in the workplace. Your poor colleagues…
Oh hang on, I get it. Nobody could be such an appalling caricature in real life. Nice one!
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— COMMERCIAL BREAK —
Bigoted? Repressed? Out of touch?
Join the Church!
We’ll provide an outlet for all that pent-up homophobia. Open Sundays, 10am-1pm. Tea and biscuits provided. Donations welcome.
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Roman Catholic? His views are more like Greco-Roman era – I think Julius Caesar circa 44 AD would have similar views
Come on this is 21st century, live and let live, god loves us all, gay or straight
Well said Dave Burrows!
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What bothers me about this is that it’s the same religion that also in much of its teachings, promote the fact that women are second class citizens. We no longer tollerate that, so why should we with anyone other group of society that it wishes to pick on?
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Suprise, suprise – Another safe article towing the ‘pc’ line.
Come on S/Star, let’s have something a bit more gritty and courageous just to even things up.
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This one more to your taste ?
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2012/02/10/leader-council-prayer-slot-now-being-threatened/
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Reading past copies of the Shrewsbury Chronicle (April 1954) I came across a story that said. ” Two males attempting to procure an act of gross indecency in a Shrewsbury Cinema, Mr X ( both names were given) was jailed for 8 months. Mr. Y was fined £100″ Just a bit of history.
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What a ridiculous comment. What is your point- that because 2 gay men got up to something dodgy in 1954 gay couples should not be allowed to legally marry now? Or that this example proves that all gay men are, by definition, dodgy and immoral? Your story is not “just a bit of history”, it’s just a bit of histrionics. Please find something more constructive to do than ploughing through old copies of the Chronicle in the vain hope of finding spurious ‘evidence’ to reinforce your prejudices.
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Helen. I go to the Shrewsbury Archives to do reserch on a history project that I’m doing ( the company where I served my apprenticeship) and the article caught
my eye.
Peter. I agree with you Alan Turing was a great mathematician, but let us not forget the people who were in the team with him, even a post office engineer that built the machine that saved hours.
Bletchley Park is a wonderful place for a day out.
Just a historical fact; one of the reasons that Alan Turing committed suicide was that he was being blackmailed by his young lover.
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John Jones-
That still doesn’t explain why you decided to share the article with us. What point were you trying to make?
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Tommy Flowers was also a hugely talented man – but by his own admission not the visionary that Turing was.
Turing committed suicide following enforced chemical castration, and as a result of being persistently barred from pursuing the career he loved and was so brilliant at.
He was not being blackmailed at the time of his death – though there had been a threat of blackmail earlier in his life, prompting him to go to the police, which resulted in him being prosecuted and being given the stark choice between imprisonment, or subjected to the aforementioned chemical ‘treatment’.
And all this because he happened to be born gay – something his colleagues in Bletchley Park were aware of and which caused them no apparent problem.
It’s a desperately sad story.
But that leaves the unanswered question – why did you feel it necessary to point out the fact that homosexuality used to be illegal in less enlightened times? It’s irrelevant to the current debate.
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Helen and Peter, The answer to your question is simple; I think personally that homosexuality is disgusting. Years ago in the men’s toilets there used to be signs about sexual disease but now they have changed to “It is an offence for any sexual activity to take place in these toilets: Does this answer your question?
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John,
I think all you’ve done is to tell the world that you have bigoted views on homosexuality. I understand that you find it ‘disgusting’ but don’t worry – no one is putting we heterosexuals under any pressure to participate!
Why can you just not allow others to do as they wish if they’re not harming you? My recollection is that you’re not too keen on people with different coloured skin to you, nor those with different religious beliefs – how do you find the time for so much hatred?
As for your ridiculous point about public toilets, are you really suggesting that anything other than a small minority of homosexuals engage in such practices? Presumably, using the same logic, you believe all straight people to go in for ‘dogging’!
You still haven’t explained why you felt it necessary to point out that homosexuality used to be illegal.
Has it not occurred to you that one of the reasons they historically met in places such as public toilets was because of the fact that they couldn’t meet or socialise in public due to unjustified persecution by people like you?
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On Friday night we went out with friends to our favourite Indian Restaurant, after we all went to have a few drinks in town. All over town there were many groups of beautiful, gorgeous girls of all ages, so my question is; With all these girls about, at the end of the night, how can a man go to bed with another man and not one of these beautiful girls. I just can’t understand it. To all of you people on this page please enlighten me.
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Not sure what point John is attempting to make. We’re all aware that in the past homosexuality was illegal, and that it resulted in many decent people living their lives in fear and misery.
The case of Alan Turing is perhaps the most well-known – a genius, to whom this country owed a huge debt, who was pursued to his death by narrow-minded people who simply couldn’t accept his sexual orientation.
Not a part of our history we should be proud of – and it’s good to see that finally his enormous contribution to Britain is being recognised.
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Well said Dave, an excellent, well-written article! (That surprised you didn’t it?!)
The worrying thing about the views of that backward-thinking Bishop is that some people will agree with him!
Well said Dave Burrows!
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Perhaps we should outlaw gay clergy from undertaking marriage proceedings. Seems only fair – there are masses of openly gay bishops and clergy out there.
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I am glad the Bishop is true to the bible and is advertising exactly what Christianity stands for & believes in. It’s his job. As a bishop he must support his churchs stance.
Hopefully gay couples who want to marry in church will look deep inside themselves, they will questions which is really true.
These feelings and attractions they had deep down from a very young age sometimes despite wishing & praying for them to go away or the stories they have been told about a man who lived 2000 years and an all knowing being who created the earth.
Then you can either be gay & unreligeous or gay frustrated unhhappy & religeous. You choose.
Why try and hold on to this ancient myth that preaches that your very existence in wrong? Why care if you marry in church?
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“I am glad the Bishop is true to the bible and is advertising exactly what Christianity stands for & believes in.”
What’s that then? Irrational, institutionalised intolerance?
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The bible says that man shall not lie down with man. The bishop is only being true the good book.
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The bible says lots of wacky stuff. Do you subscribe to all of it, word for word? You must live a mixed up, crazy life if you do.
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Maybe you should try reading it!
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I imagine Dr Rowan Williams is quite familiar with its content. In a recent debate with Richard Dawkins, he said, on the book of Genesis, “these were not literal narratives, but stories with deeper truths about the nature of humanity and the creator”.
So even the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn’t swallow it word for word.
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However more adventurous positions are acceptable?
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[Then you can either be gay & unreligeous or gay frustrated unhhappy & religeous. You choose.]
Spoken like a true zealot.
It’s all in the mind TG so of course you can be a homosexual and call yourself christian.
After all you can be a mealy mouthed bigot and call yourself christian too.
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Apologies TG I, read your post wrong.
The church is all theatre, and with the power and wealth it managed to acquire through most people’s ignorance and lack of education in the past,it has left a legacy of wonderful ancient buildings and history, that’s the attraction.
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the bishop should be sacked for his backward, divisive and unchristian views
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