Telford council boss Andrew Eade today stepped into the patrols in the park row and admitted: “We made a mistake and I’m sorry.”The council leader stressed that there was no question of adults being stopped and quizzed just because they were in the Town Park without children.
Will town park visitors face grilling?
See also: Park pervert patrol shock
Home Office attacks park policy
Councillor Eade spoke out after council sports and recreation manager David Ottley caused a row by revealing in a letter that childless adults could be stopped by wardens and asked to explain what they were doing in the park.
But Mr Eade said this afternoon the letter “incorrectly stated the situation”.
He said: “On behalf of the council I want to say sorry over this issue and apologise for any confusion that may have been caused, in particular to the many people who use and enjoy Telford Town Park.
“I want to categorically state that it has never been this council’s policy to stop, question and turn away adults without youngsters in the play areas in the Town Park. Such a policy defies common sense and I will not let this happen.”
Mr Eade blamed the confusion on “an ad hoc instruction that was introduced some years ago covering children’s play areas”.
He said council officers had acted on the instruction and quizzed fewer than five of the five million visitors who have enjoyed the park over the last five years.
He added: “However, I fully understand why normal law abiding people would feel affronted by what they have heard and read. I want to take this opportunity to say sorry that a letter sent last month to a resident, that started this whole issue, incorrectly stated the situation.”
* The story of the council’s approach to childless people using the park has sparked national controversy and was not only featured in today’s national newspapers but was also on BBC Radio 4’s flagship news programme Today, on Radio Five Live, Radio 2 and also Matthew Wright’s Wright Stuff on Channel 5.
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114 Comments
Again I see nothing wrong with T & W actions over the child area’s in the Town park.
Its such a small area (The childrens play area) that single persons with no children should not have a issue with being told to avoid it.
Unfortunatly it is necessary in todays’s age that these actions are taken.
Again people who are not guilty have nothing to fear from this stance from T & W council.
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So if a adult has a kid that is fine? Even if they are a peado that are wanting to take the child/ren into the bushes to play???
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this is a disgrace i often walk my daughters up to the park to meet thier friends and walk back alone does this mean i am going to be grilled for dropping my girls off with friends or if i walk to a friends i am not allowed through the park?
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Someone has had a spoonful of common sense!!
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So Mr Eade, what action are you going to take against the people who made the mistake?
Your staff seem to make mistake after mistake without any consequences.
Let’s list a few of the more public ones:
Trench Lock, Ketley Brook, Town centre traffic lights that cause unnecessary congestion, a contra flow bus lane that causes accidents, the recent bus pass fiasco, drain pipes planted in the road to obstruct vision at a major roundabout, failing schools under government threat of closure, penguins evicted from the park, and now a completely barmy “pervert dectection scheme”
You could not make this up and if it was made into a film people would not believe it!!
When are you going to make the council credible?
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This is too much; common sense being applied and a Politician saying sorry and admiting a mistake in the same sentence.
I need to go and have a lie down.
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exactly the muppetts have been ignored .
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So for those who think that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear… so you would be v happy for someone to come to your house, look through your cupboards, read your emails, go through your bank accounts, mobile phone records, ask your neighbours what kind of hours you keep, etc all because you have nothing to hide? If so, I’m sure you could find some cheap real estate in Russia but for the rest of us who treasure our civil liberties, we will continue to protest against these abuses until someone finally turns the light on upstairs.
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This back down seems to follow after the issue was escalated to Liberty, and has now been reported on the BBC website.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/7608591.stm
Quoting from the BBC website:
“A council spokesman said only five childless adults regarded as acting suspiciously in the park had been questioned in the past five years.”
Does this ring true and does it include the Shropshire Stars reporter who was stopped?
Oh and ‘Y Mab Darogan’ – almost every post you make states the same old ‘if you ain’t doing anything wrong then you’ve nothing to fear’. I guess this use to be the slogan in Stalinist Russia and in Eastern Germany!
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A Politician has a GOOD idea and then backtracks because of bad PR from the Press.
Very disappointing
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I love Telford, so much so I make sure I only work here and live as far away as possible :)
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How many more times do we have to hear IF YOUR NOT GUILTY of anything YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR well what about the 6 million Jews who got murdered in the Nazi death camps. what were they guilty of? Or how about the countless people who are been murdered tortured victimised imprisoned who are not guilty of NOTHING other than who they are and what they believe in..
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p p p pick up a penguin
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Well it would seem a good idea for all parents to avoid telford town centre, because it is obviously its not safe, as they need big brother patrols.
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The Town Park should be there for everyone to enjoy not just people with children. What about the children there running wild without adult supervision because Mommy or Daddy wants some peace and leave them on their own to get up to god knows what. What is Telford coming to used to be a nice place to live how things change.
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Well a poiltician may have said sorry, but words are cheap – what is Cllr Eade going to DO about the fiasco?
Does anyone know if the Rally is still going ahead on Sat morning in the Areana?
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Public Sector enemy, you could also add to your list the Eastern Primary which had nearly a quarter of a million spent on it only to have an INCREASE in casualties.
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WHY oh WHY do people keep saying:
“Again people who are not guilty have nothing to fear” (….from this stance from T & W council)
(Copied from Y mab darogan)
saying that
“because you are not guilty ….. you have nothing to fear”
shows an incredible lack of
understanding of the ways of blind authority…. and also shows an equally blind misplaced trust in those supposed to protect us …. beggars belief !!
And … WHO actually decides that YOU are “not guilty”? – It’s a bit late when you’ve been wrongly arrested, videod, photgraphed, DNA sample taken …. and the finger of suspicion lingers long after you’ve satisfied “those in authority” that you were innocent after all.
On the Contrary…. you have EVERYTHING TO FEAR!
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The police are paid to police. If there are suspected peado’s hanging around the police should be called, not T & W park employees.
I can see the sence of goodwill and concern T & W are trying to portray to park users but they are not the police nor do they have any due restriction over people using a public facility
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I’m glad there has been such an uproar in both the main tabloids an through TV. The world, well at least GB hasnt gone mad. I thought for a minute that a chinese delegation or staunch muslim sect had taken over the TDC. Good Old Democracy still exists then !
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I saw Telford was the laughing stock of the ation on BBC News last night. Sadly “No-one from the Council was available for interview.”
So why couldn’t our elected politicians appear and clarify the matter, and appologise? Don’t they have back bones?
Made them look pathetic whimps – not exactly the image we want to attact skills and investment.
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Agin I feel people are bing very paranoid about people in power.
If you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear.
Why would the people in power try to fit up the average law abiding person in the street?
No reason at all.
I think people have been watching far too many conspirency shows on here.
Laws are here to protect us.
If we had harsher and strictor laws Great Britain would not be descending into the 3rd world lawless country that it is.
Knife problem – simples
Anyone one found with a knife on them gets a minimum of 40 years behind bars same for guns.
Peodophiles – life in Prision
Murderes – The death penulty.
Vandilismn – 5 years behind bars.
Un social behaviour if drinking 2 years behind bars.
If thoses laws were brought in Britain would be GREAT again.
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Well done Andrew Eade for knocking this stupidity on the head, but there are still important questions remaining unanswered.
This “policy” was a response to what? The council say that “fewer than five people (out of FIVE MILLION park visitors) have been approached over the last five years”. I’m not a statistician, but “less than five” must mean no more than four. Four minus two penguins and John Evans handing out leaflets about the threat to the Arena equals errr, one or possibly none.
This does smack of using a five megaton nuclear warhead to crack an egg!!
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Y Mab say ‘Unfortunatly (sic) it is necessary in todays’s age that these actions are taken.’
But it isn’t necessary, that’s the point. The idea of so-called ’stranger danger’ has been hyped up by our tabloid press, and is no more prevalent that it has been for decades and decades. Children were far more at risk in the era of ‘Victorian values’ than they are today.
And why do the press hype these stories? Is it to act as moral guardians for us all? Nope, it’s just a cynical ploy to sell papers.
And if we were to implement your suggested laws, far from being great again (and you’ve misunderstood what the ‘Great’ in Great Britain means!) we would be turned into an authoritatian police state, not unlike Saudi Arabia.
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At least it is going to be sorted out.
I am fed up with the “if you are doing nothing wriong you have nothing to fear” statements. Some people are so ignorant.
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Myself and the individuals involved in the climate change action will continue to hand out leaflets in the town park regardless of the councils actions.I believe the issue of us as a threat to children is a distraction from the main issue we were trying to engage people in. They do not like people to be in public spaces raising awareness of issues like global warming, illegal wars or other social justice issues. They do not want a well informed, critical thinking public, they want passive people in Telford who work, shop and consume and do not use public spaces for any type of community organizing. The council claims to have a policy on climate change and claim to wish to engage with the public on this matter. There response to our groups actions should have been, if their claims on caring about the environment are true, one of support and they should be happy that we took the initiative to do something they should be encouraging. They have chosen to stiffle our actions with silly statements about child molesters.I don’t expect an apology from the council to our group who had us removed from the park under non-existent claims that we should have CRB and risk assessment checks. Telford and Wrekin Council have showed themselves to be self-interested authoritarian bureaucratic idiots.
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Y MAB This is not really about paedophiles, children,park wardens….it’s about overpaid fools in suits who are not doing their jobs properly and trying to dictate to “Joe Public” what they can or can’t do in a public place without the express “permission” of these over paid, jumped up bufoons.
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And would Britain having the same laws as Saudi Arabia be so wrong?
i for one object to paying taxes to keep murderers in prison in tha lap of luxury while OAPS who fought for our country in the war are cold and starving at winter.
Something has gone wrong with our country somewhere..
and the thing which has gone wrong – would have to be all the liberal laws made by liberal PC People in power
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Graham Bunn – Have you considered to think people do not WANT your views FORCEFED to them while they are enjoying the public spaces.
If you feel so strongly about your issues why don’t you form a political party and stand for election at the next election.
It would be cheaper and less damaging to the environment than printing 100′ of flyers which people throw away.
As to your other points.
Global warning – Not happening no scientific proof of this – gullible people have swallowed this line from the Government on global warming and carbon footprints. It helps the Government to raise money in stealth taxes to fight your so called illegal wars so in effect you are fundraising and helping the Government raise money to fight these illegal wars
SHAME on you.
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The Leader Promised to allow the public to speak at Full Council but never delivered on that promise.
Now is the time to actually deliver that policy. Only by actively engaging with and involiving residents themselves can this type of thing be avoided.
We need Policy,Practice and Procedure to brought out for public scrutiny. The Politicians are worried about other parties having ago rather than putting our interests first.
I invite Andrew Eade to the Arena on Saurday Morning at 1030 and hopefully he will then say exactly what is happening.
Officers saying the policy will be reviewed is not good enough, these are the same officers who make mistake after mistake.
They have proven they cannot be trusted.
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obviously the most important lesson to be learned from this is, small groups of dedicated people can challenge arrogant power…and win!
I hope others gain inspiration from this.
Get out there we have a world to win and nothing to loose but our metaphorical chains.
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Something doesn’t stack up with Andrew Eade’s comments. He “stressed that there was no question of adults being stopped and quizzed just because they were in the Town Park without children”, yet the Shropshire Star video clearly demonstrates this actually happening.
Y Mab Darogan: Nobody is force feeding you with their opinions. If you don’t want a leaflet, a polite “no thanks” is all that’s required.
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We have never ” force fed ” our views to people, they have a choice to walk on by if they wish. I have capitalist consumerism and it’s off shoots shoved at me almost 24/7, i have no escape, except when i attend events like climate camp and get to live in a empowering, sustainable , consensus based sane mini society, despite indimidation from the state.
The evidence to support global warming man made or other is overwhelming. Of course government will use it to extract more tax from us It’s what governments do. As an anarchist forming a political party is something i realized as a non-starter. Party politics is a sham, It could take years to gain voter momentum, to still not get the necessary changes needed, and again this undermines the need for people to do it themselves and not defer their own power to elected representatives who have on many occasions demonstrated that they do not care much about the public’s needs. Politicians are as much trapped by the system as we are, they just get more perks. Their job should be to make themselves redundant.
Direct action gets the goods.
Under international law the war in Iraq is illegal.
It seems too many people in society are living in a state of denial about environmental issues and their role in the capitalist rat race. To acknowledge the truth one might be required to evaluate ones life and in relation to the society we have.There are tough choices to be made. Then one may be required to take action.
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I take it John Franklyn, Graham Bunn and Jake are all connected with this action group thn?
It would be nice if you could all mention you have dealings with this action group before you make comments.
It seems to me this has all been blown up out of proportion due to 2 activits dressed as penguins being unable to get there own way.
If so this is a total waste of money and time and the action group should be ashamed of itself.
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Graham Bunn
Re your comment
“Direct action gets the goods”
name me one example where direct action has ever got anything?
Petrol Protests – Petrol prices are now sky high blockading the ports did nothing.
The anti war movement – demonstrate all you like war is still happening.
Poll tax movement – Poll tax scrapped but more expenive council tax introduced.
Direct action achieves NOTHING!!!
Btw if you do not like living in a capitalist society I suggest you move to a small island just off Scotland with no electric/TV/radio.
I take it you will be as happy as a pig in muck there.
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- Not part of any group, just care for basic freedoms and assumption of innocence before guilt.
It was most likely a kneejerk reaction to some ill-researched article or management talk. Power is something most people in this country are unable to cope with.
Someone took it on themselves to judge people on the lowest common denominator eg how they appear on their own in a park. Then used their power and influence to drive this through, in an effort to make it look like they’re doing something. Most times its not noticed – like this move to 6th forms in schools – 10 year or so – they will move them bacj out and waste even more money. Target driven jobs are a danger to common sense and democracy!
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y mab – you need to do your home work, i belong to telford council watch.
this has been documented and declared over many occassions on the past few years, over a wide range of topics.
I will neverjustify having a point of view to the likes of you.
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Y Mab Darogan – I have never heard of this group, let alone have anything to do with them.
Graham Bunn stated at the outset that he is involved with them.
You say it’s been blown out of proportion and is a total waste of time and money, apportioning blame to the action group that first highlighted the Council’s stance (possibly because the overwhelming opinion is contrary to your own), yet the Shropshire Star’s own video footage clearly shows a council employee questioning a single male about his business in the park, which is in direct contradiction to the statement made by Andrew Eade. This has nothing to do with activists, penguins or climate change and everything to do with your civil liberties and mine.
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Well I hope Cllr Eade does turn up on Sat. He might get some of my “free range” eggs. Free because I’ll hand them to anyone who wants them, and the range, well, pretty accurate up to 10 yards!
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Thank You John Franklyn and all at the council watch site. This town needs more people like you fighting for a better Telford and holding those in power to account. You are a 21st century Tom Joad and the type of citizen this country needs.
Telford should be proud to have you.
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Graham Bunn – Would’nt a btter Telford be one that protects the innocent/
and would’nt you also agree that innocents would be people under the age of 18 playing at a childrens park?
If you agree with that don’t you also agree that it is essential that innocents should be entitled to expect adequent care from T & W
Even if that means asking single persons what they are doing in a childrens area/
Lucy W – I might see you sat then ;o)
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As one of the two people distributing leaflets at Telford Town Park I feel it is important to clarify the events leading up to and following our expulsion from the park.
Our actions were planned to coincide with the events taking place at this years camp for climate change, held at Kingsnorth power station in Kent and only included four banner drops, an unsuccessful banner hoist and the distribution of leaflets to members of the public in the Telford Town Park. These can hardly be claimed to be violent revolutionary acts in themselves. However while members of our group were being asked to leave the park police intimidation including baton charges the use of pepper spray were being carried out on friends and colleagues at the camp for climate change.
Whether one agrees with our actions or not is a moot point. What is at stake here is a fundamental point of our right to free expression and to be able to use our public open spaces as we citizens choose. Telford and Wrekin Unitary Authority (sic) have no right to question any member of the public as to their actions or intentions. To suggest otherwise is to change the relationship between the individual and the state.
Luckily and despite intense pressure we do still live in a society where free speech is tolerated. And to relinquish our personal responsibilities to others is to make ourselves slaves of an authoritarian regime, whatever the political hue. Of course this is what those of a sadomasochistic bent would be only too willing for us all to do.
Neil Donaldson.
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Neil Donaldson – Powerstations are not toys to be demonstrated around they are very dangerous bits of equipment.
The Police were well within in there rights to move you on.
However you fail to realise that the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is sowhy should the majority be forced to change because of the minority?
and by minority I would estimate that people who agree with your views make up approx 2% of the worlds population
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Y Mab, get real. There are dozens of people on here and on other sites nationally such as the Mail on line who think that what Telford and Wrekin tried to do is ridiculous, they can’t all belong to some “anti Telford and Wrekin council” protest group. Can’t you see that you are a very small minority in this debate that believes in what the council are trying to achieve?
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Well done to Graham Bunn and Neil Donaldson (and Rachel Whitaker) for their amusing, creative and inspiring climate change direct action.
We need more people like you.
Good luck with your next action.
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I went and ‘hung around’ (ate lunch on a bench) in the town park yesterday and was very disappointed that no one from the Council came to harrass me. What are we paying these officials for ??
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Re the leaflet distibutors, I can’t see the problem and go further to say that I think a public place is the right place for this. Has no-one ever visited Speakers Corner in London? Well I have several times when I was child and remember it used to kick off sometimes – but thats seen as a civil right in London.
Perhaps T&W Council could create a “Speakers Corner” in the park, so show that we are as forward thinking as our capital colleagues?
I suggest that Sundays be reserved for Religious matters (sorry but Jews and Muslims will just have to fit in with Christians), Saturday be a free for all, and Monday to Friday for Huw Peach to go on and on and on about Global what-ever-its-called.
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Yes y mab if an individual in the park is asked what they are doing there, they are hardly likely to admit to be plotting to abuse a child, so what has been gained? i do think Telford has a duty to protect people. Something we all should do in a sensible well thought out productive manner. To be honest some of your suggestions appear to be right wing reactionary solutions. I hope i am wrong and we can find some ground on which we could agree as i don’t want to spent time on negative tit for tat behaviour.There too much bad feeling and not enough understanding in the world to add more to it.
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Graham Bunn – you claim never to have forced your views on people – that is of course true, but can you not understand that in the same way as most people get a bit tetchy about being bothered on their doorstep by religious zealots, your actions have a nuisance value for those who have attended the park in the vain hope that they will not be pestered by obsessive zealots under the pseudo-religious blanket of ‘climate change’ activists pursuing their pet cause/hobby.
For that reason it seems not unreasonable for officialdom to ask you to desist, in much the same way they might ask someone to stop dropping litter.
I have written myself in these columns concerning the harm that the excesses of capitalism are doing to the workers of this country, but it’s naive in the extreme to suggest we could manage without it altogether.
The whole environmental cause is now harming our economy, since governments and others are using the hysteria generated as an excuse to get more money out of us all – while few of our competitors are so obsessed with this, thus gaining advantage for their economies.
Let’s not forget that respected climate change scientists have expressed misgivings at some of the exaggerations generated by the climate change warrior brigade, and even as recently as the 1970s the same activists were telling us we were heading for a new ice age!
One even claimed that the chances of mankind surviving to the turn of the century was in the order of 1-2%! It’s difficult to take people seriously when they cry wolf so often.
There is evidence emerging now that the glaciers have melted before within the last few thousand years, with artefacts being regularly found as the ice retreats – and humanity and the planet survived!
And Neil Donaldson – who gave you the ‘personal responsibility’ to pester me about climate change? Like the religious types, you’ve taken it upon yourself to do that.
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For people in Shropshire wanting to find out more about the media’s presentation of the climate change issue, I would recommend the latest thoughts on this issue by Media Lens (medialens.org).
This looks at the propaganda effort in the media over the last couple of years by energy companies to promote ‘carbon capture and storage’ (CCS), the latest technological fix for dirty coal-fired power stations.
According to Corporate Watch, CCS is unlikely to be in widespread use until 2030 at the earliest, and possibly not until 2050.
Isn’t it a bit embarrassing for our democracy when penguin-clad activists, who want to initiate a debate about this greenwash, are not even allowed to do so?
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Y Mab: Re your “minority” point. I agree! So should fox-hunting be legalised because only a minority in the countryside are against it?
Huw: How did the Green Party Conference go? I trust you had a good time attending.
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Hello Huw Peach, Thank you for the supportive comments. I have found Medialens to be a great resource for factual information regarding climate change and many more social justice issues. They did some great work regarding the factually incorrect documentary ” the great global warming swindle “. I think it is ignorant and arrogant of people to accuse me and my friends of a type of religious zealotry by an individual who has never met us. There is nowhere in Telford that we can go to engage with people and stimulate healthy constructive debate. I think many people are concerned about the environment but the size of the problem can seem overwhelming that maybe people feel powerless to act.
I hope i am wrong on climate change, we need to protect the environment regardless for obvious reasons. I think to sit on the fence on this issue is too great a risk to take.
As i have said before the government will use anything as an excuse to raise our taxes, it’s their standard response to any problem, Plus they need to raise money to pay for oil wars and further syphon public funds into the private sector.
I recall the same type of debate regarding the tobacco industry and cancer, they paid many scientsts to come up with evidence to deny the links there.
climate change, anti-war and other issues are not my pet hobbies/causes just a rational response by a compassionate group of individuals who accept some responsibility towards the society they live in.
I get no joy handing out leaflets and the often verbal abuse one gets, though most people are kind and supportive. I would rather be with my friends enjoying our company with a clear conscience than at events like climate camp seeing my friends get a beating form riot police for the crime of caring.
We have capitalist consumerism forced in our faces all the time by the ” religious Zealots” in the advertising propaganda machine. Their billboard faeces are splattered all over the place, one can’t switch on the TV or radio with out the message to consume mindless aspirational consumer items rammed into your head,If only i had this gadget, clothes item, aftershave, make-up, plastic surgery i would be king in the you are what you own purchase a personality market, that needlesly uses up resources turning the globe into a slagheap while more than half the world live in poverty and are denied the basics for decent survival. I recognize my part in the problem and try to address the balance. Unfortunately i realise there is a certain amount of personal hypocrisy in the choices we make, that’s another symptom of the system we have to live in.
I would be great to meet up with Huw Peach at some point in the future.
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I was with Graham and Neil at the climate change leafleting event and would reiterate that we were not badgering people with the leaflets nor were we standing on the footpath. Despite our collective description as ‘protestors’, this wasn’t even a protest, it was just a group of us using local public open space for something that we feel is worthwhile. If being asked if you would like a leaflet and having to say ‘no thanks’ is the most distress you face today, you’re a lucky person.
Y Mab Darogan: It’s difficult to know whether your view of the world is culled directly from the Daily Mail, climate change denial polemics on Channel 4 or perhaps a bit of both. Are you worried that if you even look at one of the alternative sources of information suggested to you by various posters on this forum, you might have to open your mind just a chink?
Of course, we all have our prejudices – personally I’m not fond of people who repeat the same information over and over again in the hope that if they say (or type) it enough it will become true.
I’m not a scientist but I have endeavoured to study all sides of the climate change debate, including that of the sceptics and deniers. I agree with those who say that it is being used as a ‘cash cow’ by governments and corporations but that does not alter the striking evidence that the natural process of global warming has accelerated since wide-scale industrialisation. This has made climate patterns both more extreme and more difficult to predict.
As it happens, the event that started this debate was about climate change but the ensuing debate had seen some interested views posed on how we treat children in our society and the consumption driven culture of which anthropogenic global warming is a part.
In response to this, I posted the following on the Telford Live forum yesterday:
“Just a brief glance round the Town Park yesterday would have revealed children in t-shirts brandishing a variety of slogans and logos including Nike, Manchester United, ‘sexy chick’, ‘horny’ and the Playboy bunny logo. I wonder if the parents of these children were also those who wanted protection form perverts? It’s quite likely because these people are so seduced by the herd mentality of consumerism that they are happy to sexualise their own children or dress them in clothes made by children who are often abused themselves. I think this makes them more likely to get caught up in the mob mentality of hunting down the ‘lurking paedo’.
Of course it’s a good thing to make sure that children and adults alike in our community don’t have to suffer any unnecessary harm or distress but this isn’t going to be addressed by knee-jerk reactions to a much wider problem.
I don’t think anyone would deny the abhorrence of child abuse (whether physical or sexual), least of all it’s victims and adult survivors but so-called ‘stranger danger’ is just more media hysteria about a social phenomenon that explains only a relatively small number of child abuse cases. Surely the paedophile on every street corner must now be jostling for position with the terrorist and knife-wielding teen?
I’m not saying that the sexualisation of children excuses paedophilia but parents can’t have it both ways. Either children are to be wrapped in cotton wool and protected from everything or they’re feisty little sexually-aware, image-obsessed consumers.”
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I think we should assign a police officer to follow Y Mab around all day, every day, without leaving his side for even a moment, to see just how little he truly values his privacy. After all, he has nothing to hide.
Unfortunately we can’t do this, as our right to privacy is guaranteed by law.
As for your utter nonsense about making Britain into Saudi Arabia, if you want that to happen I suggest you just up sticks and move over there yourself. Because nobody in their right mind wants that here, in a country that has shed blood to retain its liberties for centuries. Your idea of a utopia continues to be perhaps the most warped and disturbing that I’ve ever heard in my life. I’d much rather die free than live under the thumb of a lunatic like you.
This pervert patrol is completely pointless. Its (scarce few) supporters keep citing ‘protecting the innocent’ as a good reason for it, but that’s nonsense – as many people on these comment threads have repeatedly and exhaustively demonstrated, the stranger danger is exaggerated to absurd levels, and children are at greater risk at home. Likewise, stopping people in the streets and asking them if they are perverts or isn’t likely to yield any results. Is it?
And I’m still yet to see any figures which prove the Town Park suffers from any problem of this nature in the first place.
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Huw,
Whilst I accept that big corporations certainly have a political agenda, and will use their influence in the tabloid press in particular, I couldn’t describe medialens as being unbiased either.
They are three people whom I believe base their position upon Buddhist beliefs. Whilst many people regard the BBC for example as a voice for liberalism, medialens seem to regard them as a mouthpiece for corporate propaganda.
Given that the BBC are being criticised from conflicting sides, it might well be reasonable to assume that they are getting the balance about right. Certainly they seem willing to link almost any topic that they cover to climate change – which I must admit I find a bit tiresome, and if anything my assessment is that they come out too strongly in favour of the ‘cars are to blame for global warming’ argument.
The problem with many environmentalists is that they are fond of blocking possible solutions but less competent when it comes to offering viable alternatives. Wind power, wave power solar power etc. are all well and good, but they’ll never meet all of our needs. So we look at clean coal (no, not clean enough), nuclear power (no, too scary) oil and gas, (no too much carbon and too much reliance upon the Russians to supply).
Given that we’re not all about to build our houses from wattle and daub, don sackcloth and go and live in a ‘climate camp’ what are we going to do Huw?
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Y Mab Darogan is concerned (#43) that ‘the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is sowhy should the majority be forced to change because of the minority?’
First of all, the reverse is true.
Worldwide at least 18,000 children die every day because of hunger and malnutrition and 850 million people go to bed every night with empty stomachs, according to the UN World Food Programme (figures from 2007).
Climate change, the predicted increase in extreme weather events, high oil and food prices and low food stocks are predicted to make these figures far far worse.
No doubt Y Mab Darogan believes that the rest of the world shares his view that things are fine in a world where nearly a sixth of the world’s population are starving.
But clearly growing numbers of people do NOT.
And, thankfully for all of us, there is a small number of committed individuals (like the Telford penguins) who are speaking truth to power in a way that cannot be ignored by those who defend the status quo.
Margaret Mead the US anthropologist said, ‘Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.’
The abolition of slavery, the fight for workers’ rights, women’s suffrage, the campaign for universal health care and education would never have happened without people (-or even penguins-), who -in their day- would have been branded ‘zealots’ by reactionaries.
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AT LEAST HE SAYS SORRY A RARE TREAT FOR A POLITITAN, SO WELL DONE
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Peter says ‘few of our competitors are so obsessed with’ [environmental issues].
Why, then, has Australia signed the Kyoto Treaty.
Why are both US presidential candidates promising massive cuts in emissions, Peter, if what you say is true? (80% cuts promised by Barack Obama and 60% by John McCain by 2050).
Members of the G8 are responsible for 62% of the carbon dioxide accumulated in the Earth’s atmosphere, which makes us (the 8 richest countries) the main culprit of climate change and the biggest part of the problem.
In July 2008 other countries like Brazil, China, India, Mexico and South Africa seemed more than a little interested in the issue.
What paper do you read, Peter? Did you miss this story?
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Is it too much to ask for a debate not to be hijacked by the climate change campaigners? According to the article above, this story concerns the leader of T&W Council issuing an acknowledgement that their stance was apparently incorrect. Unfortunately, it is being taken over like others before it, by the usual suspects in order to get across their green agenda. Please save your beliefs for the right time and place, and stop trying to turn everything into a debate on climate change. You know who you are!
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Peter,
In Comment #49 you said that ‘the same activists [who are warning about climate change today] were telling us we were heading for a new ice age’ in the 1970s.
I have tried to research your claim, but could not find any evidence to back up your claim.
Could you please name ONE current climate change activist who made these claims in the 1970s?
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Whether the police have the right to move people on or not is irrelevant. No one has a right to use violence and intimidation against people involved in their democratic right to peaceful protest. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of previous form on this, as a quick trawl through the archives will clearly show those who are interested. More recently people being gunned down in their own home or using public transport also spring to mind as does the use of torture to extract false confessions and fabricating evidence in order to convict people who were later exonerated, the Guilford four and Maguire Seven amongst others.
The salient point about democratic right to peaceful protest is that citizens in ordinary communities can take on and challenge those in hierarchical power structures where the inadequate electoral process has failed. By challenging those who would claim authority over us is an empowering activity which everyone should be encouraged to take. However this philosophy is not prescriptive. There are no rules about how people should go about improving their lives, environment or what ever other concerns they may have.
Freedom to take responsibility for oneself and community can be daunting, especially difficult when deference to unearned and unwarranted authority is inculcated from childhood. However to accept an authoritarian hierarchy system can only lead in the end to fascism as scapegoats for society’s failings are lead once again to the gas chambers.
Neil Donaldson.
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In #55 Peter said, ‘Given that we’re not all about to build our houses from wattle and daub, don sackcloth and go and live in a ‘climate camp’ what are we going to do Huw?’
1) A good place to start would be to read the Zerocarbonbritain.com strategy on halving Britain’s energy demand and moving to renewable energy.
You can find the report on the website of the Centre for Alternative Technology.
2) Secondly you could have a look at the Greenpeace UK site to see a computer animation of what a zero-carbon town would look like. Click on to ‘Efficiencity.’
3) If you are looking for policy decisions that our government could be taking in the face of the triple crunch of climate change, rising (food and) energy prices (underpinned by peak oil) and the credit-fuelled financial crisis, then I would recommend you consider reading the GREEN NEW DEAL by the new economics foundation (available to order from their website).
By the way I wouldn’t read it if you are looking for references to ‘wattle and daub and sackcloth’, Peter.
These plans have been drawn up by green economists and campaigners, whose ideas are being investigated by political parties of every hue.
I hope that answers your question, Peter. Could you answer mine now?
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Can we filter out Y Mab Darogan’s comments please, they are ridiculous.
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Surely if Y Mab Darogan’s are filtered out this would be tantamount to censorship. Free speech applies to everyone. And although I profoundly disagree with the comments posted by this individual I feel it would be inappropriate to “filter” anyones comments simply because what was written was “ridiculous”. In some respects this individuals comments are quite illuminating of the society we live in. And the best way of dealing with this is not by censorship but through humour and ridicule. And surely none of us are above that.
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with all due respect Mark, comment 59
It was the green agenda that actually raised the awareness of this issue. They have not hijacked this thread, but I believe their message has actually been lost among everything else. They have been prepared to tolerate that and support others, now that is only to their credit and I applaud them for their approach, I for one will support them as they have been prepared to give, they have displayed a number of qualities that are rare in today’s society.
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Some very good points being made here – But the direction seems to have changed I thought the idea was to comment on whether the council had the right to “stop and question” lone adults in the town park – It appears to have drifted into a discussion on climate change or are the coucils actions a direct result of global warming?
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My self Rachel and Neil have not high-jacked this issue. We have highlighted an important issue of the right to free speech,assembly and community based activism in our town park without having to be labelled a potential paedophile by the council who threw a strop and had us thrown out of the park. I am happy we bought this to light, that the council have made the right decision on reflection.
The town park is now free again to be used by Telford citizens to, enjoy and if needs be encourage debate and action on important issues in our community and the wider world.
Climate change is not a belief system like religion ,it is a theory backed up by substantial scientific evidence. If the science in the future significantly changes to rationally support another theory then i will re-evaluate my opinion on the matter.
Oh and yes mark, Me Rachel, Neil, Huw know who we are…do you work for the FBI ?
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Huw: Re Peters comment that in the 70’s distinguished experts were predicting an new Ice Age is true. They even wrote to the President of the USA about their concerns. ( sorry I can’t be bothered to research the exact facts for you, but at least I’m doing my bit by living a lower carbon foot print than you. Did you drive to the Green Party Conference last week?
Jon 43: Words are cheap – especially from a politician. What is required is a little less talk and a lot more action.
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Huw, apologies for my tardy response, I’m afraid have quite a lot of other things to do with my life, unlike, apparently, many of those who frequent futile climate protests and camps, and dress up as penguins in parks!
I’m always struck by the irony of climate protestors attempting to claim the high ground from a scientific perspective, yet at the same time throwing their hats in with an assortment of fellow-travellers who believe in such palpable nonsense as homepathy, aromatherapy, the power of crystals and any amount of other ‘bad science’.
Now, getting back to your question as to which climate change scientists were global cooling advocates and changed their minds; well how about Dr Reid Bryson, (University of Wisconsin), an ice-age doom-monger in the 70s, subsequently a global-warming proponent, cited by the British Institute of Geographers as the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world. He’s now become a sceptic of either theory.
Of course many of those pushing the ice-age theory in the 70s will now be dead or at least no longer active, but the institutions and the pressure groups that supported them continue to this day.
Others who have become sceptical include Dr. Vincent Gray, a member of the IPCC’s expert reviewers panel, who concluded that the IPCC’s methods are flawed, that it actively refuses to consider certain types of evidence, and that it is ‘fundamentally corrupt’, or perhaps top geophysicist Dr claude Allegre, one of the first to warn of global warming some 20 years ago. Or even Dr. David ‘grapple me grapenuts’ Bellamy!
Actually, it’s OK for science zealots to change their minds, becuase unlike religious zealots, they do at least take account of evidence. The problem arises when the science is hijacked by pressure groups whose influence is such that some of the science, even from eminent people such as those above, is suppressed, because it doesn’t suit their political ends. Any ‘refusenik’ is instantly rubbished and denigrated, no matter how much credence was given to the previously.
Now the afore-mentioned sceintists may be wrong – but I think at least their views deserve consideration.
Moving to the zero-carbon home view, I looked at the ‘zerocarbonbritain’ website, and was struck by the fanciful nature of some of the ideas stated. For example, the plugging in of all vehicle batteries to faciitate extra storage and power sources for the National Grid!
There is also a suggestion that we massively reduce livestock farming in the UK, once again evidence of campaigners seeking to impose their chosen lifestyle on the rest of us – their agenda, like that of religions, is one of control, not planet-saving.
Whilst it may be possible to build zero-carbon houses, the fact remains that the vast majority of our dwellings will not be zero-carbon any time in the foreseeable future. Even if they were, would it make even a barely-measurable change to our planet’s climate? I, for one, doubt it.
Perhaps you could respond with an accurate prediction of how much the Earth’s temperature would reduce if we took the UK’s carbon output out of the equation?
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Huw Peach asked why Australia signed Kyoto, the answer is because we have a Socialist, corrupt Federal government (Labor – without the u) and until yesterday, all states and territories had Labor govt’s (thankfully West Australia got rid of ours on 14th Sept)and so called climate change is a big money spinner for these left wing Laborites and their grubby little cohorts. We will be even more taxed than at present because of this climate change hysteria. Geoff of Bunbury, Western Australia.
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Graham, your point about one side of the debate being anonymous and the other side giving their names has a lot of bearing on the credibility of the two sides.
One side, backed up with overwhelming scientific evidence, has credibility.
The other side’s credibility is so tattered that they have to hide behind pseudonyms.
If you are looking for good books on the work of PR companies, which spread misinformation, then Sharon Beder’s excellent Global Spin is a good place to start.
Apparently last night’s BBC programme, Climate Wars, also put the denial industry under the microscope according to friends I was talking to at lunch today; the denialists didn’t come out looking that good.
I missed it unfortunately, but would be interested to hear what you thought if you managed to watch it, Graham.
One method used by PR people is to try to confuse the issue or muddy the waters.
Then if that fails- they try to persuade you that speaking out or creating a debate where there wasn’t one in the first place is ‘futile’ (like Peter did).
The penguin stunt was not at all futile, take it from me.
It was brilliant and fun.
The fact that we now have someone writing in from Australia shows just how worthwhile your action was, and shows how seriously vested interests are treating this vital debate in Shropshire.
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Huw: Re BBC TVs program, was interesting, but the fact remains that the “experts” got it wrong (according to some) in the 70’s despite all the technology of the time.
Perhaps todays “experts” will be proved wrong by tomorrows technology? Its a question of keeping an open mind.
As for the sceptics looking bad, I though that they did well making an interesting point that the Global Warming-ists will not part with all the data that they draw their conclusions from.
Also NASA had to revise their original results but now say there is only a slight warming – nobody disputes that!
At the end of the day, anyone can draw graphs to support a theory, but if they wont share the data to be scuitinised, then I wont take them seriously.
Quite frankly, its just another Acropolis theory that human nature has been prone to since the beginning of time. Technology may have advanced rapidly, but by nature, humans are generally no further evolved than cave-men, with religious and superstitious beliefs.
To sum up, if you dont believe in Father Christmas, why do you believe in Global Warming?
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Y Mab said:
“Its such a small area (The childrens play area) that single persons with no children should not have a issue with being told to avoid it.”
It doesn’t say SINGLE people without kids, it says ALL people without kids. You know, like a couple who are anticipating their first child, and enjoy watching children in the playground? HORRORS! THEY MUST BE PAEDOPHILES!
Y Mab, please move to the Middle East if you wish to be in an area with authoritarian government, which can stop people for no reason and question them just in case they MIGHT be a criminal. The rest of us like a presumption of innocence when we are doing NOTHING WRONG on PUBLIC property for which we pay taxes.
My I suggest a new law, wherein anyone whose name starts with a “Y” is immediately taken into custody and questioned for 12 hours, just in case they might be a daft loon like “Y Mab”?
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Earlier, in response to #49, I asked Peter to name ONE activist who claimed in the 70s that an ice age was coming and is now warning about global warming.
Instead of answering Peter provided me with a list of climate change sceptics, and Lucy W said she couldn’t be bothered to look them up but it really really did happen because she said so.
These are not answers; they are red herrings.
By the way, Peter, talking of vested interests, the only references that I could find on Wikipedia to Dr Reid Bryson (an anthropogenic climate change sceptic) were the ‘Capital Times’ and the ‘Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News’.
You claim (mendaciously) in #69 that the British Institute of Geographers say he is ‘the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world’.
Perhaps he is the climatologist most frequently cited by the ‘Capital Times’, the ‘Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News’, right-wing bloggers, PR companies working for fossil fuel corporations and corporate front groups.
However, readers will confirm that there is NO evidence on the climate change section of the British Institute of Geographers website (yourclimateyourlife.org.uk) that what you say is true.
In fact, if they investigate it, they will see that the British Institute of Geographers website is entirely devoted to explaining the REALITY of man-made climate change.
Or are you going to start saying that the ‘British Institute of Geographers’ are ‘zealots’ now, Peter?
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Granger, I disagree with you and agree with Graham that in a democracy everyone should be free to express their opinions.
Y Mab has said some ridiculous things about climate change, too, and runs away every time he is asked to defend his views.
However, censoring anyone is abhorrent in a democracy.
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Huw: Re 70’s ice-age prediction. I was taught it in school. I heard about it recently on Radio 4 and it was detailed on that BBC TV programme the other night.
Personally I would not rely on Wikapedia for facts!
Why dont you watch it again on the Web and you might learn something.
Sorry, but quoting names doesn’t make the matter correct.
Can you tell me where I can find the data that supports Global Warming?
I know it must have been a big dissappointment when you learnt that Father Christmas wasnt real, but I’m sure you got over it, just as you will when you realise that you have been taken in by Global Warming.
Did you drive to the Green Party Conference by the way? You never seem to answer that question, while you are swift to make the point that other people haven’t answered you questions!!
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No, I didn’t drive to the Green Party conference. If you are interested in seeing our leader Caroline Lucas’s GREEN NEW DEAL speech to the conference, then you can watch the YouTube links on the GP website without driving there.
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Peter, who seems to have disappeared after being caught red-handed telling porky pies about the British Institute of Geographers, also mentioned David Bellamy as a sceptic.
He might therefore find the correspondence about climate change between George Monbiot and David Bellamy (posted on monbiot.com on August 19, 2004) very revealing.
Like Y Mab, Peter and countless others, David Bellamy stops debating when he knows his evidence base is so thin.
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I have not yet seen Climate Wars, but will do so soon.
You asked, ‘Can you tell me where I can find the data that supports Global Warming?’
According to my friends, who told me about the programme, the data you are looking for is the star of the programme and the sceptic argument is annihilated with it, Lucy.
Have you seen the programme?
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Huw: Re David Bellamy, the last time I heard him, a few weeks ago, he was a sceptic.
Re Climate Wars, yes I watched it so know what I am talking about unlike you, Huw, who readily talks with “authority” about what you do not know anything about.
Re Data: I have no idea what you are saying. Where can I find the data for climate change so that it can be scrutinised? The program made the point that such data is withheld by the GW Theorists and this point was never chalanged by the Theorists in what was a balanced program.
So as far as I can see, the Global Warming arguement is as convincing as Scientology.
If you wish to believe all the gloss and spin, thats fine by me, but I would rather wait and see the facts for myself or at least wait for them to be open to scrutiny.
So I assume that you are a believer based on blind faith alone as the data is not available for scrutiny – or can you tell me how you can be so sure of your beliefs (other than other people say so).
PS I didn’t think the sceptic arguement was annihilated at all. As a scientific person myself, I recognised the flaws that were being raised by the sceptics.
It was interesting that NASA made their data available for scruitiny and revised their conclusions upon being advised that they had flaws in their scientific method.
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I shouldn’t, as you rightly say, comment on Climate Wars, as I haven’t yet seen it. However, my point about what my friends said about it, was legitimate.
None of these people, who saw the programme, is a Scientologist, a believer in Father Christmas or blind.
In fact these people who used the word ‘annihilated’ read copious data in the press on a daily basis.
It is you who seem blind to it.
It is interesting that different people watching the same programme can draw such polarized conclusions.
You also seem blind to the unequivocal conclusion that the programme made, which is the same one that the British Institute of Geographers, David Attenborough and the overwhelming majority of the world’s peer-reviewed scientific literature is saying: THE EARTH IS WARMING AND MAN IS CONTRIBUTING TO IT.
Your data red herring is pitiful almost by your standards, Lucy. I almost feel sorry for you.
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Sorry Huw, I cant comment any futher as what you have to say is hearsay.
The majority of scientist thought the world was flat. I can remember, the ice-age prediction, acid rain killing all the trees, nucleaur anialation, Y2K bug devastaing the world, AIDS and bird flu wiping the population out. These were all hysterical accopolys theories – so is Global Warming.
At the end of the day, you can not point to any data that is available for scrutiny.
Your are welcome to your blind faith, but I personally take a more scientific approach to these matters.
NASA’s data was made open to scrutiny and the undisputed conclusion is a very slight warming at the moment consistent with normal fluctuations.
No need to feel sorry for me Huw, just show me the data that can be scrutinised.
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What do you think other readers think of your ‘more scientific approach to these matters’, Lucy, when they read the data provided by the Hadley Centre/Met Office on its website?
You can find this data at http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/myths/ under various different sub-headings.
Fact 1: Climate change is happening and humans are contributing to it
Fact 2: Temperatures are continuing to rise
Fact 3: The current climate change is not just part of a natural cycle
Fact 4: Recent warming cannot be explained by the Sun or natural factors alone
Fact 5: If we continue emitting greenhouse gases this warming will continue and delaying action will make the problem more difficult to fix
Fact 6: Climate models predict the main features of future climate
Each of these facts is accompanied by data, which completely undermines your case.
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Huw: Thank you for that link, however it does not make the data available for scruitiny! IF YOU THINK A PRETTY GRAPH IS DATA – THEN YOU NEED TO LEARN SOME SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUE. It is just the conclusion. Nevertheless I would like to make the following brief comment.
Fact1 It is an OBSERVERED increase of 0.7 degrees C, this is due to the inaccuracies of the weather stations being sited too close to development and so giving a higher reading due to the thermal “radiator” effect of built up locations. The Las Vegas weather station by the airport gives a 3 degree reading higher than in the desert! The Theorists will not provide details of all the stations used so that they can be checked for this effect – well I smell a rat! The MODEL shows that we are cooler than the 1860’s – so what are we to make of Climate Modelling?
The Vikings sailed through the North West Passage – the ice melt is nothing new!
There is nothing further I have to add as the remainder is an extenuation of Fact1
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Basically this issue boils down to one thing: trust.
I trust David Attenborough, the Met Office, the British Institute of Geographers and the Royal Society.
And I DO NOT trust Lucy W.
Nor do I trust anonymous bloggers who leave the debate (like Peter) when their claims are unravelled.
This is the pattern of ALL debates on climate change, which I have been involved on the Shropshire Star site.
Lucy W’s claims about low-carbon lifestyle ( http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/06/19/town-gets-cycling-boost/ #114) are about as believable as Peter’s claim about the British Institute of Geographers and Y Mab’s demonstrably absurd claims that ‘the majority of the population is quite happy with the world as it is’.
Does Y Mab imagine that people are enjoying the sight of the unregulated international finance system unravelling before their eyes with the inevitable knock-on impacts on their jobs and livelihoods?
The Royal Society, Britain’s scientific body, deals with Lucy’s red herring about models on its website under Misleading Argument No 5.
Sharon Beder looks at the work of PR companies, whose job is to confuse the public about issues like climate change in her brilliant book, Global Spin.
In the meantime the slow, but steady work of getting a couple of people interested in the issues, building a slightly bigger organisation, planning the next move, experiencing frustration and then finally getting somewhere is continuing.
The world is changing and there is nothing that the Lucys, Peters and Y Mabs of this world can do about it as long as they hide behind pseudonyms.
True democrats build up trust; enemies of democracy undermine it.
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Huw: Re trust, that was my original point. You have blind faith in GW-ing and I am sceptical because the theorists will not allow their data to be scrutinised. You are clearly rattled at this point, perhaps you should re-think your values.
As for the Met Office – they cant get tomorrows weather right – remember Michael Fish and the “hurricane”?
As for the pattern of GW debate, you either ignore a fair comment or get in a strop when a fair comment is made.
As for my low-carbon life style, perhaps you could tell me what you don’t believe about it and I will gladly email you a photograph or video clip as factual evidence. I have nothing to hide, unlike you Huw, who is clearly embarrassed that as an “embassador” of Green issues, you are not setting a very good example.
And finally, what has democracy got to do with all this?
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Poor, poor Huw. You go through your rather sheltered life reading messages about doom and gloom and losing sleep over them like a five year old child worries that santa claus might not come down his chimney this year. Get out into the real world and worry about things that might actually happen or are actually happening.
We can’t stop global warming any more than we can stop animals killing each other, wars or people getting killed either at work or on the road.
We can worry ourselves sick about it happening or we can just get on with life…I know what I would prefer to do!
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Thanks but no thanks for the offer of the video clips, Lucy.
Why not just give your full name on this very public thread?
I give mine here because I can then be held accountable if I make mistakes.
That’s how democracies work.
You asked ‘what has democracy got to do with all this?’
Everything.
Decisions taken today about whether the country should embrace the GREEN NEW DEAL and start a green industrial revolution or build Kingsnorth and undermine our climate targets are political decisions. These political decisions are the result of democratic debate.
In November and early December 2009, the Danish government will host the COP15 conference which will determine whether there will be a replacement agreement to the Kyoto Protocol. Many democracies are taking part in this conference, and many PR organisations working for the fossil fuel industry are doing their utmost to undermine this democracy.
So IMHO democracy has everything to do with the climate change debate, Lucy.
Threads like this could potentially be used for grassroots real world democracy if people were willing to identify themselves as I am prepared to do, and you and BRIAN(2) are not.
If you are right about global warming and the science academies of Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, India, Japan, Mexico, Russia, South Africa, the UK and the USA are all wrong, then they could all congratulate you on your scientific method in the infinitesimally unlikely event that the evidence shifted your way.
But we will not be doing so, because the overwhelming evidence from the peer-reviewed scientific literature is that mankind is contributing to climate change.
No matter how many red herrings you send out your anonymity undermines your credibility.
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BRIAN(2) it’s great to hear from you again.
Why, though, are you debating with people like me?
Surely you are undermining your message about how we should all be outside enjoying ourselves.
Or is your message the same as Lucy’s message that people like me and the Telford penguins should get outside and just leave democracy to the anonymous PR industry?
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If readers want to get out in the real world and research examples of PR campaigns and self-serving anti-environmental front groups, then I recommend they read about the Global Climate Coalition on Sourcewatch.
Here is a well-documented example of how democracy has everything to do with this debate and how it is being undermined by some very determined corporations.
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Huw: I find your constant request for my personal details abit creepy to be honest.
I did offer evidence of my green credential, but you seem to have declined the offer.
It strikes me that once you form an opinion you do not want to consider any fact that may prove you wrong.
I believe that your closed mind is what drives you forward with GW obsession.
As for the Telford Penguins, you have obviously not read my comments on this matter. For you benefit, I respect the actions, views and rights of these people. And trust that they respect mine. I even suggested that the Park has a “Speakers Corner” to promote such activity.
So instead of twisting the matter around to my full name and address, please could you tell me what you dont believe about my low-carbon life style, or withdraw the implication that I am dishonest.
I quite anticipate that you will dodge this challenge, like you always do when you know you are wrong.
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It has just been brougt to my attention that it is comment 103 on Huw’s link where I state a few of my low-carbon/green life style choices. (Not 114 as Huw incorrectly states).
I would be very interested to hear from people who have made such choices so we can swap tips etc. I have some chickens, eggs and garden produce for sale for anyone who is interested in saving the food miles.
I also collect waste newspapers and card and sell it for recycling (as well as metals)- why give it to the council? I will recieve it for charities and pass on the money.
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So who should people wanting to swap tips write to, Lucy W?
And, if you are what you say you are, what do you think of the well-documented evidence I mentioned on SOURCEWATCH that PR companies are undermining our democracy and the scientific consensus on climate change on behalf of big, powerful corporations?
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Why are low carbon / green life style choices so important for someone who equates the scientific consensus on climate change with a belief system and who has such a virulently anti-environmental agenda?
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Lucy,
I too find Huw’s persistance of wanting peoples names from which he can obtain addresses very suspicious too, I would consider reporting him if he pushes for that information and not send him any e mails from which he can trace you.
Keep up with your truly green life style…it seems you are the only true green in this debate.
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Huw: I guess there is no further comment I can make while you dodge the challenge I made in comment 91.
You imply I am dishonest but refuse to state what you dont belive about my eco-credentials or withdraw such a defaming remark.
You behavior is typical of bad loosers, you resort to personal abuse and ridicule when someone makes a fair point that you cant challenge.
You are very misled if you believe there is a scientific consensus on GW – far from it!
As I said before, you are welcome to your blind faith, I will stick to facts that are open to scrutiny.
So are you going to withdraw your allegation that I have made a false statement about my eco-credential or are you going to tell me what is false and allow me to provide evidence?
Its up to you Huw to be a man or carry on as you are, like a little child, throwing his toys out the pram because he cant get the attention and admiration he seeks!
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Dear Lucy, a friend pointed me towards this website as I have chickens as well.
I have Wellsummer purebreds that are still laying but I only get one egg every three days. I have bred from the hens, but they dont seem to go very broody and feel that I need a new cock to bring some fresh blood into them. I was thinking of crossing them with a Rhode Island Red. What do you think? What breed(s) do you keep – any tips to keep them laying in the colder months?
P.S. Your caravan with a wood-stove sounds very cosy now the dark nights are drawing in.
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John: Gosh I wasn’t expecting such a technical question! (I had to ask my Dad) He tells me that Wellsummers are really ornamental birds with the cocks being quite spectaculor. They are not great layers or broodies. However RIR’s are and in theory may improve production by crossing.
I have Burford x Legbars (Legbar being a hybrid cross of Leghorn and Barr Rock). Both pure-bred Burfords and Leghorns can be sexed by plumage, but the cross I have can’t – damn!
The cross produced large brown eggs (Burfords) and smaller green eggs (Legbar) but the hens are indistinguishable.
I have been crossing a BxLB cock with a BxLB hen and they are throwing back some pure LB and pure Black Rock hens (cocks all seem to be crosses)!
All very intriguing, but the LB is a complicated hybrid produced from sex linkage, so I expect a geneticist would understand.
As for cooler weather, the only solution is some heat and keep them indoors which probably isn’t economic sense. When I was a child, we used to move our RIR’s into large empty greenhouses for he winter.
Hope that helps, if you want some sitting eggs anytime (BxLB x BxLB), I’d be happy to post some.
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Nice try, guys.
I have to confess, it has cheered up my morning.
However, even the most credulous child who still believes in Santa Claus would have smelt a rat when John started talking about his cock problems.
Can we now get back to what ‘green’ Lucy thinks about the well-documented attempts by PR organisations to undermine trust and our democracy by confusing the public and spreading misinformation about climate change?
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Abraham Lincoln: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
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Huw: First things first. Can we get back to what you dont believe about my eco-credentials or do you wish to withdraw your earlier remark?
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Dear Lucy
Gosh I wasn’t expecting such a technical answer!
I was told that Wellsummers were the ones used in the Kellog Cornflakes adverts so assumed that they would be good layers. Obviously not so.
I gather by you/your fathers knowledge that you are a country people who know a thing or two about poultry.
Perhaps changing mine to Burford x Legbar might be the sensible thing to do, but I don’t know anyone who would want my Wellsummers, even for free.
Is your cross bred just your own preference or a breeding used by people who know?
I have seen small green eggs in Waitrose that are very expensive. Are they Legbar eggs? Why are they so expensive?
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Still here Huw,, but as I’ve said before, quite busy – and clearly with less time on my hands than you. I’m frankly quite annoyed that you should accuse me of telling lies. I just got my sources from a different part of the internet than you.
Unfortunately in common with all zealots, you simply won’t even countenance the other side of the argument.
You still haven’t offered any answer to my question about how much difference our current pain in terms of high fuel prices, all of our recycling, and having to suffer constant 24-hour propaganda will actually make to the temperaturew of the planet. Perhaps I should accuse you of ‘disappearing’ on that one?
I believe the planet is going through a period of warming – I believe it’s done so before – there’s evidence for that, and I believe our use of vehicles etc. may be exacerbating this slightly
– but that’s not the cause.
But Huw, trying to present any argument to you is like trying to persuade avowed Creationists that the world really isn’t 5000 years old. It’s pointles, because they , like you are determined to believe what they want to believe, no matter what.
I’ll carry on sleeping soundly in my bed knowing that the Planet will sort itself out, as it has done before. You carry on with the sackcloth and ashes, and telling the waves to go back if it makes you feel better.
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Peter: Glad to hear I’m not the only one Huw ignores when he finds a question difficuklt/embarrasing to answer.
I dont expect he will ever tell me what he says is disbelievable about my eco-claims.
His problem is I live a greener lifestyle than he does, yet I dont believe in the Global Warming rubbish he spouts on about.
Wish I could end this post on a witty line but I dont think I can better your sackcloth and ashes one!
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John: Try your local Indian Restaurante, they usually buy old hens.
My BxLB are infact used for commercial laying and are infact the same green eggs that Waitroses sell for silly money although there is no justification for the price. However I have heard that commercial producers are now backing out of that market as the credit crunch is effecting peoples spending attitudes in that respect – so perhap there could be a niche opening up?
I have just made a contact with someone who has a 140 egg incubator, so I will probably do one large hatching in the spring.
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The problem with councils and the Green Issue is that they don’t really know what they are doing.
Take for example the West Sussex council who last week decided to fine motorists for leaving their engines idling for more than a few seconds. Once again the council showed it’s total ignorance of practical matters and common sense. They didn’t realise that switching engines on and off continuously causes more pollution and was likely to result in flat batteries, cars going no-where and even more hold ups causing even more pollution…where do these people get their intelligence from???
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Brian(2): There is also a Health and Safety issue there as well. Air Bags wont work if the ignition is switched off!!! What do these Greenies want, Mr Polar Bear to keep his paws dry while we all get killed on the roads? (Second thoughts, thats might solve their Global Warming fantasy)
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Peter, r.e your comment (in #69) about Dr Reid Bryson being ‘the most frequently-cited climatologist in the world’ according to the British Institute of Geographers. Could you please
1) give me the reference for this?
2) explain why the British Institute of Geographers devotes its website to explaining the reality of man-made climate change?
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Graham Bunn (one of the Telford penguins) (#67) ‘Climate change is not a belief system like religion ,it is a theory backed up by substantial scientific evidence.’
Lucy W., you said in #91, ‘I respect the actions, views and rights of these people’ [the Telford penguins].
I think, like most things you say, something doesn’t add up.
How can you say that I am ’spouting climate change rubbish’ if you respect the Telford penguins’ views?
Do you believe that these institutions which have issued strongly worded statements on climate change are also ’spouting climate change rubbish’?
The IPCC, the science academies of Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, India, Japan, Mexico, Russia, South Africa, the UK and the USA, as well as the International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences; European Academy of Sciences and Arts; Network of African Science Academies; the International Council for Science; the European Science Foundation; the American Association for the Advancement of Science; the Federation of American Scientists; the World Meteorological Organization; the American Meteorological Society; the Royal Meteorological Society (UK); the Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society; the Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society; the Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences; the American Geophysical Union; the American Institute of Physics; American Astronomical Society; the American Physical Society; the American Chemical Society; the National Research Council (US); the Federal Climate Change Science Program (US), the American Quaternary Association; the Geological Society of America; Engineers Australia (The Institution of Engineers Australia); the Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London; the European Geosciences Union; the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics; and the International Union of Geological Sciences.
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Dear Lucy
Thank you for your information. I certainly need to rethink my flock.
I presume you have a licence from DEFRA as it appears that you have over 50 birds. I dont want to get that large but have wondered if it is possible to increase a flock to a profitable level whilst producing a quality product with the highest animal welfare standards.
I understand that “Barn” and “Free Range” regulations are not quite as the consumer imagines.
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Huw: I refer you to my comment #101. It is my infererence by your ommision to deal with this, that you are ashamed that you wrongly called me a liar.
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Lucy, Huw will always turn a deaf ear when he knows he is in the wrong . This has happened on several other threads where he has accused others of doing something or saying something which is totally different to what has actually been said.
To know Huw is to love him!!!
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Peter, you said (#103), ‘Unfortunately in common with all zealots, you simply won’t even countenance the other side of the argument.’
However, it seems that nearly every contributor to these discussion boards is a climate-change denying zealot, who will not countenance the other side of the argument.
If not, then what do they have to say about the institutions that I cited in comment #109?
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BRIAN (2), thanks for the love.
However, I would prefer an answer from you.
As Peter won’t comment on the institutions I mentioned in #109, maybe you can.
Or are you deaf to this sort of thing?
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